Photo: J. Grant Brittain

Passion. It drives, it motivates and inspires. Christian Hosoi has always been passionate, he continues today. Throughout the course of life and the vast amounts of experiences, there are indicators along the way of things we should take notice of.

I am extremely encouraged to see that you are still a skater, after all that you have been through, and what you are today, it’s really inspiring. I see alot of situations where talented people come to God and then are encouraged to leave everything in their past behind, sort of a “throw the baby out with the bath water” vibe. Could you share your thoughts on this?

God created you with talents and gifts and a lifestyle not to use for your own glory but to glorify him. Everything that was made was made for him and by him. He created the whole skateboard thing and he gave me the opportunity to use it for his glory, at first I didn't, I was all about me. I was a selfish guy who thought that the world revolved around basically whatever I wanted to do, just be a good person and if there was a heaven then I'd go there.

So my idea of heaven was being a good person, so I was a good person, but I was getting all the glory for myself, I was sitting on the throne, I was on that chair. He was obviously trying to get my attention, my name is Christian, my nickname was Christ, I invented the Christ air, and really there wasn't any laborers put in my path that talked to me about a man named Jesus who loved me and died for me, who claims he's the son of God, and the Savior of the world, and that in his blood I have the remission of sins, and that I can have eternal life if I just give my life to him, and believe that God raised him from the grave.

So for me it was one of those things like "Boom!" "Wow, how can I have not been told this?" It's like the best kept secret in the whole wide world. Here I am in prison, the first time opening up a Bible, and God just breathing his truth into my life, the scales falling off my eyes and me finding the reasons why I was created, what my purpose was for and all these things. I remember sitting there on my bunk bed, a triple decker bunk bed in county jail, and saying "God I'll give it all up" I was in one of those holy moments you know what I mean, "I'll just go to the amazon for you, I'll give up my wife, my kids, I'll quit skating forever!".

I thought I was being super-spiritual, "Lord I'll just sacrifice everything for you",

I was immediately apologizing to God - "Lord forgive me, I'll be the best husband, I'll be the best father, I'm gonna try to be the best skateboarder so that you can be represented well, and I'm going to tell the skateboarding industry, I'm going to reach out to all my friends, I'm gonna raise my kids and my wife in the things of God, and immediately, "Boom!", that whole idea of "giving it all up for you God", that's not what God truly wants, but I'm not saying that God isn't able to call you out of where you are at and tell you to go to another place.

If you can hear the voice of God, well then you'll just get up and go. Like Abraham did. He didn't question God he just said: "time to pack up our bags, we're goin'!". It was counted as righteousness for Abraham, because he did the things that God told him. But for me, I saw my place, and I saw what skateboarding could do, I saw the condition of the culture of skateboarding, and where it was going and how I was a big part of leading them down that trail of just crazy, rebellious type people.

You call them artistic and creative because of the lifestyle they live, but it's really just rebellion against the truth, and just trying to create your own idea of what life is all about, and where you find true joy or happiness, and you can't find it in the world, you can't find it in money, you can't find it in things, you can only find peace, joy and love in Jesus Christ, and that's the only place you'll have that, and it will satisfy you, and it will be a complete satisfaction that will never go away.

So for me, being a skateboarder, I saw the opportunity, I saw the platform, and I can use my name to reach out and touch people because God gave me this platform and how popular I've been. But now, I just want to use that platform to preach the gospel, in a loving, non condemning way, that shows them the love of God is real, and his presence is life-changing. It's his presence that's going to change your life and that's what changed my life, having an encounter with Jesus that was not religious, ritualistic, it was based on me having a genuine, real encounter with the living Savior that touched my life when I asked him to come into my heart.

Often when it comes to talents and gifts there seems to be not only more of a focus, but more of a validation when it comes to the spiritual gifts that the bible speaks of, like the gift of faith, prophecy, healing, etc. But shouldn’t gifts and talents work together? An artist can equally express his gift of faith thru his paintings as someone else with the same gift prays with people on the street corner, is one more valid than the other?

Yeah, you know, it's all about being rescued out of a lifestyle that has no Jesus in it, and then taking you back to that place where you were saved from, using you as a tool and an instrument. The very thing that was trying to destroy your life, for me it was drugs and that crazy partying lifestyle, that was sucking me up like a toilet bowl just flushing me down, so now finally I can speak to people about drugs, and having a lot of money at a young age, being famous, or just being popular, or a number one skateboarder, whatever it is that you are into.

I have that ability and experience- I can talk to people about prison and what prison is like, I'd been there for 5 years. Those are things that I have access to because I have experience in them. Whatever you've done, God can turn it around like he did for Joseph, he said "what the enemy meant for harm, God turned it around and used it for good".

People put God in a box, and they think "Ok, I'm gonna become a Christian, and I'm just gonna be a missionary, or I'm gonna go to church and I'm gonna wear a suit, get clean cut, get rid of my tattoos, don't wear earrings, because it's "time to get into the Christianity box"". Where is that place of reaching out? Because we're supposed to be on the rooftops preaching the gospel. So for us, to not go into the places that we have complete access to is shortening the arm of God. Because we're his hands and feet. It's not like God needs us, but God wants to use us. So we just need to be available for him to use us, and if we could just get into a relationship with God it will break down the religious barriers, there's no denominations in Christ. So many people get caught up in thinking, "Oh are you baptist, are you non denominational, are you one of those born againers"?

We have to have the absolute intact, we have to love people and tell them that Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and you need a genuine encounter with the living Savior, and when you have an encounter with Jesus, there's not going to be one denomination, there's not gonna be any walls, you're gonna have an encounter with God that is real and it's gonna change your life.

All of those things are awesome things for us to cling to, but there just comes a point when we just have to read the bible for ourselves, we need to stay in prayer and surround ourselves with mentors and believers and get into a healthy, healthy church that's full bible believing, and really researching and know what you're getting into, because it's simple if you just make it not seem like God is in a box.

Once you take God out of that box, then it becomes clear, but when he's in a box people put this yoke around your neck, of legalism and laws, just like the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who said "you gotta do these things, you gotta look this way, you gotta act this way, you gotta talk this way" you know what, we just gotta know what sin is and not sin. We need to know what God's righteousness is and walk in it, we need to be slaves to righteousness and not slaves to sin anymore, and if you can do that you're on your way to changing the community you live in, your family, the world that we live in today, and that's the bottom line.

Photo: Jason Olivia

What is it about Christian Hosoi, and what is it about Skating that God decided to use them both in such a huge way?

God makes us all different, I'm different than you, my abilities are different than your abilities and that means we can reach different places, that's why we're the body of Christ, each member has its different function, like the eye and the foot. How can we work without each other, we can't, but when we work together, we can really make that difference, that will be powerful. It's working together, it's teamwork.

It's not "I'm gonna be captain save the world on my own". It's man, let's go out and fight this battle together, let's lock arm in arms, let's pray, and then we go out there with the anointing of God, believing that God is going to heal people, we're going to believe God for signs and wonders, there's going to be demons cast out in Jesus' name, setting the captives free. When we walk around with the expectancy that God is gonna use us, and we're pure and cleansed and our hearts are purified, and we're constantly sharpening our sword, and edifying each other, that's what it's all about. That's the uniqueness about every one of us, we're all different and God can use us all. You just have to choose to be used.

What is the most important part of skating, and what does it mean to be a quality skateboarder?

For me skateboarding was all about fun, and it was so much fun to me that I just wanted to do it all the time. Going from fun to doing it all the time, I wanted to be the best. So I had a goal that I wanted to meet, I wanted to reach that goal and nothing was gonna get in my way. Bruce Lee was one of my idols as a little kid, and I wanted to be the best Kung Fu guy in the world, but when I finally got the skateboard, I was like "Wow, this is FUN!".

Bruce Lee and fighting is like aggressive, and I wanted to be the best and I wanted to beat everybody up, and be the best martial artist, because I went to all the Kung Fu movies and that's what I was into as a little kid, going to chinatown and japanesetown, going to chinese movie theaters and watching samarai movies, I wanted to be a warrior, but when I got a skateboard I was like "this is fun", and it's an extension of surfing and I'm like surfin' down the street, sprayin' dirt and smashin' against barrels by bushes, and I was like "this is SICK!" and all of the sudden I was at the skatepark and I was like "WHOA you can fly in the air???".

That's when I went "this is INCREDIBLE". This was like in 76' and 77' and I thought "if I could skateboard for a living, I'll never have to work a day in my life!", and I haven't worked a day in my life, you know what I mean? Skateboarding has been my job, and to me it's not a job, it's what I love and I'd do it anyway. So, those are the things that made me who I am and why I do them, and "what does it mean to be a quality skater?", It means that you're having fun, and you're doing it for the right reasons - It's not about the money, it's not about the fame, it's not about winning first place, it's about enjoying what you're doing and progressing at what you do, and that right there is the real ultimate reason why I love to skateboard. It's the love of skateboarding, it's the passion for it that drives me to do it. The quality part of skateboarding is the enjoyment and fun that you have skating with your friends.

Photo: Quiksilver

You were an entrepreneur at a very young age, I think that’s encouraging, in that it shows that there is more to the skating industry than whether a kid can turn pro or not.

How were you able to successfully implement Hosoi skates, do you have a head for business or are you an idea man who gets together other talented people who can make the ideas happen?

No, I started my company at 17 years old, and just did it out of the garage, we screened the boards ourselves, just me and my father. My father is an artist and went to art school at Berkely, and graduated with his masters in Fine Art. My mom was a secretary in beverly hills for major stock-broker firm, so she understood business, my dad was creative, I had both worlds of influence all my life, so when I came to that place of "skateboarding is my life", I'm making thousands of dollars a month, at 14-15 years old, traveling all over the world, it was like "ok, well how about starting our own company?" and it was just like "yeah, just do it!" It wasn't like it was something hard that I couldn't fathom, it was like "man this will be fun", and that's what it was all about, fun, going through business partners and joint ventures, and contracts and relationships with companies.

You know I had a great amount of experience dealing with partnerships and all that. So for me it was a learning experience, to do it all and be successful at it on top of all that. Not only being young, but being successful, making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, it was kind of like, over the top successful, to the point where I was almost a loose cannon just goin' off. Blasting anywhere I wanted to blast and doing whatever I wanted whenever I wanted, and no one could tell me otherwise because I was successful.

So, my parents weren't raising me in the things of God, even though they were great parents, they raised me with great morals, great upbringing, supported me to the utmost, but the fundamentals of faith and God weren't implemented. So, when I came to the Lord, I introduced my parents to God and said that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and you guys need to read the bible and understand this because I want to spend eternity with you guys, and both of them got saved, and praise God, that God would allow that to happen, and that I would have the opportunity to be the one to present them the gospel.

But back in those days, it was all about freedom and creativity, and I was smokin' pot at 12 years old, with my parents, and it was no big deal. Bringing girls back to the house at 14, 15, 16 years old and spending the night wasn't a big deal back then. Today, it would be completely horrific, you know what I mean? I look at these kids at like 14 and 15 and they look like babies. But maybe because I was so young back then, I didn't know what I looked like, but back then I think it was a little bit more open minded, whereas today, people like us are really standing up and revealing Godly principles into the lifestyle of even skateboarding that people are recognizing what's really good and bad. Because when you don't know God, good and bad to us, before we come to God, is much different than today as how I look at things that are good and bad. When I look at things that are good and bad, I look at it through the eyes of God. It's about sin and righteousness, they're two different things, it's not about good and bad, because what's good in our eyes can be a sin in God's eyes.

So for me, I was just being creative, starting my own company, and having a good time. I didn't save any money, I was just like "I'm gonna spend all my money on my friends, I'm gonna live a crazy lifestyle, different than anybody else, and I'm gonna be a giver" I was like one of those generous guys that took everybody out, no matter what, spent it all and just paid for everything. If you're with me, it's on the house. Today, I get people who tell me how that really touched their lives, and now I can tell them how my life is today and how it's not kudos, it's not for me to get a pat on the back, for everybody to go "you're the man". Praise God that I was like that, praise God that my parents raised me to be generous, they were the ones who told me not to be tight and selfish, but I took it and said I was gonna be a good person. But now I'm doing it for a reason and that's to glorify God, and give God all the glory for it. Now, when I give things away it's not about me, it's about what God has done through me. So, I'm just humbly being used by the Lord to be able to bless somebody rather than "hey look at me, I'm really a godly guy", like the Pharisee's standing on the corner with their eloquent prayers and all their garb.

Photo: Chris Ortiz

What we do in secret God will reveal in the open. When you see people coming into that place when you're ministering to them and them receiving it, that's the priceless gift that you get, when you tell somebody about Jesus, and you can see them give their lives to the Lord. You shared your testimony, you preached the gospel, and many come forward and give their lives to Jesus, and that you can be one of those people. Right? That's the pay, that's priceless in a Christian, or choosing ministry. It becomes a place of looking into the eyes of people and seeing them receive the lord. That right there is worth more than all the money in the world.

Obviously, there is a tremendous amount of hard work that goes into perfecting ones talent, but more importantly, there is also something else special there, something at the core level – divine intervention – help to do something that ordinarily one wouldn’t be able to do without that help. Do you agree?

I believe God has a part in everything, cause he created it all. There comes a point where we choose to do things for him. Because we were created to glorify God in our lives. So me, I was looking for my best interest in doing it, but God all along was like "I'm gonna use this for my glory and I want to use you as a mouth piece for me to reach out to this generation of people", and it took me thirty years to finally come to the place of revelation that Jesus is who he says he is, and that without him I will have no eternal life.

So my testimony of 8 years being on crystal meth, running around the streets with my head cut off, people can relate to that because they're going through those things. Now I'm helping to set people free and break the chains of bondage in their lives and addictions, and pleading the blood of Jesus over their lives, and breaking the curse that's been passed down from generations to generations, which ultimately is what cuts the thing to the root, takes the axe to the root and they become completely set free, "Who the son sets free is free indeed".

That right there is complete freedom, liberty, the peace that passes all understanding. Then you have the strength and the power, that fire that comes from the Holy Spirit, the place where the rubber meets the road, when life gets hard, because life isn't gonna be all a bouquet of roses, it's easy to praise and glorify God when things are good.

But when we're prepared, and when God has really conditioned us to that place of what the perfect will of God is, we would be thankful and thankful in all things, that is the perfect will of God. That means all things, in my sickness, in my hardships, in my difficulties, as well as in my strengths and my accomplishments, you know what I mean? But we tend to forget about him in our good times and acknowledge him when we need him in our bad times.

Praise God that I got touched by God when I was in a place of desperation. I was addicted to drugs for 8 years, I was in a prison cell looking at 5 to 10 years, and I surrendered my life to God and said "God if you're real" and I cried out with a cry of desperation, and said I'm lost and I can't figure it out, and that's when God supernaturally blasted me, and the scales flew off my eyes and I saw the truth and I just ran after God, and kept my focus on him and I haven't looked back since that day. For me, that test in my life, turned into the testimony that I have, and going back to your question of, "has God been a part of that?", oh yeah he has. Because now that I acknowledge him, all that is to be used for his glory.

Do you consider yourself to be a perfectionist?

I very much am a perfectionist when it comes to the serious things in my life, but I'm also easy going when it comes to other things, like the leisurely things, or stuff like that. So a perfectionist, if I want to be I sure can, and like skateboarding, that was one of the things, and my walk with Christ, I want to be a perfectionist, not legalistically, I just want to glorify God the best I can. I want him to be pleased with my lifestyle, I want him to be sitting up there having a sweet smelling aroma, when I'm worshiping him in spirit and in truth.

Does prayer play a part in your creative process? Do you pray before you skate?

Oh yeah, definitely. I pray before everything. The bible says to pray without ceasing, in Thessalonians, the perfect will of God is to be thankful in all things. So you think about it and you're like "ok, so pray without ceasing, so do I just not stop?" No, pray in a constant communion with God based on our relationship with him, that's communion, he's my best friend, and I know he's right there, he's with me, he's taking the rocks out of my path, he's the light to my path and a lamp to my feet, you know what I mean? When we walk like that we're not walking alone!

I'm always looking for divine appointments, God's just put it in me, to want to talk to people about Jesus, every opportunity that I get I'm gonna take, it could be that one thought that that person has, like myself back in the day, that somebody didn't take the opportunity to do so. That they didn't sacrifice their time for me, when they're like "man I should have said something", and what if they didn't. Well, my eternal salvation was on the line and I don't want somebody who's been placed in my path, who God has put there for me to minister to, to plant or to water, whether there's already seed planted or I'm just planting the first seed, or if there's a harvest there and they just want to give their life to Christ and they do so. God gives the increase and it's for me to just be available, to be there and to open up my mouth.

I remember in "Livin it LA", the part with Tim where he's alone, by himself practicing, and the whole time he’s talking to God and thanking him for being able to skate, and at the same time being honest about himself with God and saying things like "I’ve always had a desire to be by myself and that you wired me to be like this".

Is there a duality in skating that is unique to it alone? Meaning, there is an opportunity for "quiet time" and to be alone and focus on your work and meditate on God, and then there is a communal time where you can encourage and be encouraged by other skaters?

Photo: The Uprising

Me, I'm a people person, so for me, when I have my quiet time I don't wanna go skate a ramp by myself. Never, I'm never gonna skate a ramp and practice by myself. I told you that when I started out skating it was for fun, you know what I mean, it's for enjoyment, it's for people getting together, and having relationships and I think that really shows the love of God more than anything. Because the bible says that they'll know we're disciples by our love one for another. So for me being there skating by myself, it means there's a photographer there to get photos and there has to be nobody else on the ramp. I did that just two nights ago at a bowl in Hollywood. It was one of those things, I was by myself, on the ramp, but you know, there was a reason. But to go and to meditate while I'm skating, I'm either going to meditate on God, or I'm gonna be skating with the boys, you know what I mean, and trying to minister to them if they're not saved. Cause that's what we really do, when we go skate we go with an agenda, that hopefully we'll be able to minister to whoever's there. Every time we go skate.

Lets talk about art. I dig those pieces that you did with Mark Gonzalez. You mentioned before, your dad is an artist as well, what role does art play in your life?

Well, I grew up in the art scene, I grew up with my dad painting my whole life, I went to art galleries and art openings, my whole life in Hollywood, and understanding now Michaelangelo, and the sistene chapel and going to see all of that in Europe and seeing Picasso's work and seeing it live, before I got saved.

Now that I'm saved, seeing how artwork plays a huge role in representing a time and place, it really is interesting and it's really something you can hold on to and look at and constantly talk about, so for me art is something that lasts, it's a sign of the time, it's an extension of oneself who is the artist, and you can grab a hold of the purpose and meaning and it tells a story as well, and in relationships, like if it's a collaboration like me and Mark Gonzalez. The art was way beyond just the art pieces, and the person that did it, the relationships they have, what they do as skateboarders and the stories they have to tell, and then putting the art together. It means way more than what the art piece was in the first place.

That's what's so awesome about art and why I do it on my own, you can use it as an expression of who you are, and that's why I paint Jesus and I do crosses, and it's all about him. I'm going to do some for a website and start showing it.

Music is a huge part of skate culture, have you been able to see any collaborative works between Christian skaters and Christian musicians?

I go out and I do huge events and I'm there with the huge Christian artists, I get to meet them personally and hang out with them. You know what, I'm just so focused on the Lord and wanting to just be a vessel for him that I don't even have an iPod, I just put it on K-WAVE, at my church we have awesome worship music and for me it's all about worship music.

Then of course, oldies and all the classic soul, that stuff, R&B, I love blues, and reggae, I grew up just listening to blues and reggae. Hip hop and rap, motown, that right there is what I grew up on. So for me, that brings up the emotions of growing up and love and relationships and craziness and all that. But worship music, man there's nothing like it. Hymns and songs to the Lord, listening to the music, that's just "Wow". Like there's a band "Call To Glory" that one of the deacons in our church does. He used to be in a band called "Bar Room Heroes" and they do full on rock and roll and punk, hardcore Jesus songs, and you're like "this is just SICK!" It's like full on military, like we're going to battle, and there's worship in it too. It's like, ah man, it's awesome.

One issue that seems to be recurring lately with people I’ve talked to, has been the idea that things Christian are cheesy. I’ve dealt with this personally, in that a lot of Christian music I find follows formulas, is very contrived and isn’t half as heart felt as some secular music, it’s like they aren’t paying attention to what they are actually creating and holding up high standards for it. Skaters pour their heart, soul and blood into their work, and can spot fakers a mile away. How can we as Christian artists keep it real and be authentic, and instead of creating mediocrity, become the forefront of inspiration to others?

One thing for sure is that Christians aren't worried about what people think of them and the secular people are. That's why they're so meticulous and insecure that they have to make it perfect. I've heard very poor artists ushering in the presence of God, and it being just like a sweet, sweet atmosphere of the presence of God. You can't do that with secular music, you might get touched and all, but you know what, there's something about when you worship God with your music, that it changes the dynamic of the atmosphere of where it's being played, if it's live or if it's in your car. That's why worship music is for me, it just brings me into that place of just communion with God. I think that's what music was created for.

It wasn't for having the best drum solos or having perfect sound mixing, and all that. Yeah, you can have all that and you know what if I was a musician, I'd be like this: I want to smoke the secular music world by how good I play, and I want it to be a representation of my relationship with God, but you know what, I'm not that, so for me I'm not worried about that, but I can see how people start pointing their fingers and saying "yeah that Christian stuff", but you know why, because the presence of God comes with their music and you know what they don't want to change. It changes your life when you step into the room and Christian music is being played.

Why? Because the gospel's being preached, you know what I mean?, and if the gospels not being preached, well then it's just bad music. Or it's just music that's mediocre. It's not about the music, it's about the message that's being told. If it's all about the instruments and all that, well then where's God? It's about we're worshiping God with our tambourines and harps. But I think that when you take it out of context of why you're making music, well yeah, we can get all technical, we can get all stuffy and yeah, ok this band's better than that band, but that band loves the Lord. Whatever, that's all politics, that's why I'm looking forward to somebody who's an awesome musician, and saved, so radically saved that people go "what happened?" You know, like when Johnny Cash came to the Lord.

Johnny Cash played good music, that's my whole point.

Bob Dylan, he came to the Lord, but what happened to him? He walked back into the world again. I don't know if he's still serving the Lord, I don't know if he's going to be spending eternity in heaven, but God knows, the seeds have been planted, he did read the Bible, he did gospel songs.

He's got like 5 gospel albums.

Smokey Robinson's saved, it's not about that anymore, it's about who wants to use your talents to glorify the Lord, well, that's why I'm going out practicing tonight, I'm going to the skatepark and I'm going to get better so when people see you're going to skate and preach the gospel, I want to at least come up and do pretty good! I don't want people to go "Man that guy sucks!!" "But he loves the Lord!!!" "He sure sucks, but he loves the Lord!"

[Laughs all around]

That's what I'm getting at here, the bottom line can't be "but he loves the Lord". It's that "that kid is DOPE and he loves the Lord".

Yeah, and I think that's happening today, the people who are finally getting off that pedestal and allowing God to get up on it, in their lives, and say "ok, you're the one and why I want to do this, and I want to represent you" and what does God say? He says, I will exalt you when you humble yourself. All my sponsors, all the money I'm making, it's all God... It's not anything else, I'm not performing, I'm not jumping through hoops, I'm saying to everybody, "I'm a Jesus freak, bible thumpin', on fire, spirit filled Christian, who loves the Lord, and I skateboard and I have a family, and I love to go and hang out in a backyard pool and grind coping." But I'm out there on a mission, everywhere I go, and that's what I do, I'm here to be a vessel, used by God to reach out to a lost and dying generation.

Related

• The Sanctuary HB
• Hosoi Skates
• The Uprising on Steelroots
• The Uprising Is Here
• Skate Bible

CS Lewis, described his young self (in Surprised by Joy) as being "very angry with God for not existing". Can you share your experience with challenging God and his existence?

CS Lewis being from England and me being from England, I just never really heard about it, by the time I was born I think a lot of people just had a belief in the church and in God but not really an idea of a relationship.

It's something that I never really thought about, or it was one of those "it's getting late and there's really nothing to do". So there's the UFO conversation, there's the ghost conversation and there's the God conversation. It was never like a bitterness or frustration, it got to a point for some reason, I just always thought there was something there, something relevant, like if I was gonna say something bad about God I would feel guilty.

You know we obviously blasphemed God and not realizing what we were doing in casual speech, but as soon as I thought it was an action I was taking towards Him I would feel guilty, and it wasn't like I knew what I was talking about, whether it was the God of everything, or a specific God, but I felt like I understood in some way that there was a God and it wasn't until I said "you know what, I'm so over everything that I'm just going to prove that He's not real, whoever He is, that way it doesn't matter".

It's almost like a challenge, that I hoped I'd find Him and He'd show up. But really, I played devils advocate, saying I know this isn't real, and He of course did the complete opposite. It was perfect.

That's really cool, not too many people go that extra mile to do it, they just say there's no God and go on with their lives, but to try to actually prove Him wrong, that's a whole different level.

How did this struggle impact your skating, did you find that through this experience you had a different or new perspective on your life as a skateboarder?

Well, between the time that I divorced my wife, and we separated, I realized basically that being a divorced parent, you just feel like you didn't accomplish anything, you want it to work and you just feel like everyone else. It was either focus on the junk or focus on the Lord. It was kind of like when He showed up, the way it felt, I mean I had said if you show up "I'll give you my skating, I'll get baptized, I'll remarry this woman, I'll give you my life", so in a way I didn't even know what the plan was for skating. Like, was it for me to go do all these things, and just go after skating and glorify the Lord? It didn't feel like that.

Christian, or someone would tell me "He gave you all these things, He gave you these gifts, you should use it" and in a way, if you look at what's going on with my Christian skating career, I kind of took a step back as far as the public's concerned in those years.

I spent so much time in the word, and prayer and getting involved in church, to where it's kind of awesome because the regular secular world would say what's that guy doing? But, as they start to see what I'm doing, they're gonna say that this guy pretty much dropped everything and responded to the Lord, and now it's like shown to everyone.

I'm not gonna be one of those guys who has an interview and at the end of the interview says "Praise God" or "Praise Jesus" if it's not evident in my life all the time. The Bible says all things are created by Him and for Him. It was given to me but so was everything else. We're to use all things to glorify Him.

Photo: Brian Sumner

Not to diss these other people and what they're doing, because I know what it's like for people who are raised in the church, but I think the danger is...well you see it, everyone has crosses hanging in their cars, everyone's in their MTV videos dancing around bumpin' their car with chicks, they've got a cross there and a picture of Jesus on their shirt or something and that's not the Gospel. So for me in a way it was like I don't want to do anything at all. The Bible say's let your words be few, we shouldn't be talkin' about any of this stuff, we shouldn't be throwin' around the name of Jesus, and liken it to be something that we choose it to be about, it's His name.

So I realized quick, "Ok I want to get plugged into the church, I'm going to read and I'm going to figure out all I can" and in the mean time I was still on probation, I was getting off that stuff, there was a season that kind of controlled me, that kept me calm, so I couldn't go all over the world and skate, I couldn't really travel yet and jump all these fences because their weren't tickets. So it kind of slowed down my skate career. Now it's like I can travel, I can go speak places, and skate places wherever my body feels good. Now it's like a whole refreshing thing. Especially, where I am with all my sponsors and stuff.

It felt like I guess, to answer it another way, you know Jesus, He said "They hated me first" if they hate you. As skaters, we're going to be challenged anyway, once we're Christian I think certain people, they go as far to say well I believe in Christ enough and I don't get harassed, but really the evidence that you're a true believer is that you are being persecuted and you do have challenges, because people don't like the gospel, it is the good news but they don't want to receive it because we're so used to liking sin.

When you tell people that Christ died for you and your sin, it makes them frustrated, but the Bible says that the message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. Meaning it is a spiritual issue, they don't understand, that's fine you know, but when I have people that are frustrated at it or don't understand, it's not really that they don't understand me, it's that they don't understand the Gospel, and that's where we have to ask for divine revelation that the Lord shows them, "look, you are in sin", and that's what I'm called to share, I'm called to speak the truth, I'm called to not budge on the faith and the rest of it is the Holy Spirit's responsibility.

How has the sport of skateboarding changed since you were a kid?

Well, when I started skating back in Liverpool it was like the Police Academy video, it was Gleaming The Cube, there was probably just a handful of videos that even had skating in them. I started skating around 92' and you already had the whole Tony Hawk, Hosoi and Caballero, the Powell days and...

The Animal Chin days...

Yeah, way after that even, I pretty much started skating late, really. As far as a pro career, I got in there probably in the days of late shove-its and pressure flips and it was kind of like a nasty time for skating when all the flip tricks were on the floor and they were low, and nothing looked that nice.

But by the time I was actually able to skate and do stuff, all the people were flippin' their tricks properly and they were catchin' them the right way, and that was my generation, we went to California and they were doing all these tricks in places and having to catch a kick flip and then slide down a handrail and all the rest of it? It was perfect you know.

Photo: Brian Sumner

It's been my experience and from the stories of friends and others with talents, that there is a consecration that takes place where we realize that the talents we have are truly a gift and more importantly, we know the gifts came from someone; that someone being God and that we can then in turn, thank Him for those talents, since we know God personally through Jesus Christ. For us, God is not some "force" but a real person who enjoys relationships with us. Did you also have this "consecration" experience with your skating?

It's funny because I'll use yourself as an example saying that the only time you felt like God had spoken to you was to do a lot of this web stuff and a lot of these interviews and ask people about their talents. We can prophesy to one another all day and we can say things that the Lord said in his word, but I don't feel like people are given this new revelation, but when you look at your gifts, you can speak about your gift, it could already have been revealed that we've been given gifts.

So for me personally, there's something that the Word says, there's gifts and people go as far as you know as speaking in tongues and healing and those things which are gifts of the Holy Spirit and then there's specific personal gifts.

For me, the skating I'm doing everyday, the emails I'm writing, the phone calls I'm getting, just even going downtown and hanging out with my family and all these things, I'm constantly giving it all to the Lord anyway so there isn't even really a separation in the skating I'm doing or the conversations I'm having.

But I feel like in my mind, I don't know where anything is going. Spiritually, I can feel what I'm meant to be lining up, so it's like this thing a person spoke over me 3 years ago.

The guy said I'm not going to see signs and miracles, [this is a guy who preaches at our church, Greg Devrees], he said "You won't see signs and miracles in your own life in this period of time, you've got to get yourself prepared for the season, because you're not going to be like Saul, you're going to be like David, but you've got to get yourself ready for when the Lord sends you out."

That was 3 years ago pretty much, November - December, and just two weeks ago, we went up to Bear Mountain and all the pastors and deacons sat down and Pastor Jay wants me now to start preaching full time on the Saturday night service, and have Josh Harmon playing worship, and when you look at that, that's a big deal because I've been a Christian for four years, we've been doing this reality show, I've been skating as a pro skateboarder, that's what I'm going to do, a lot of my sponsors now that are behind me understand what my faith is about and they're doing it, and now I'm being sent out where I'm going before a congregation.

So I feel like this whole season of, first I couldn't leave the country and I'm pluggin' at the church, now I've been doing all this evangelism getting involved in so many ministries and having skate conferences, and all these things going on. I've been preparing and giving it all over to the Lord and now, it's kind of like "Ok well I'm gonna use you in this season" so again, it's like the gifts He's given me are all His really, the apostle Paul he says it best out of everyone, talkin' specifically about all the things he doesn't want to do that he does, but that there's those two laws at work in him, the law of the Spirit that actually guides him the right way and there's the sinful nature in his members that just guides him the wrong way.

You know if I say to you, "You're a sinner" it sounds blasphemous because you're made righteous through the blood of Christ, but you in your flesh, your flesh is still in sin. You can get very caught up with faith doctrines, cause you know, it is difficult to get fully deep in it, where I look at today and all the good things that I do, that is Christ movin' in me, and all the bad things is the sinful nature that's been killed by the spirit, but isn't bound by that, it's still alive in me.

So when I look at Jesus, and you know He has killed sin, and the way the Bible talks about things and specifically saying, "he who knows to do good and doesn't do it sins", we're not meant to sin. The apostle Paul, even after he met Christ, kept on sinning, he said "it's not me that sins, it's sin at work in me". So it's like we're sewn into this accountability process, where we're mourning to be with the Father and to have outlived this flesh, it's like this constant crucifying of our flesh and attending to the Gift because we do have the victory.

I heard a guy last night, Don Williams, preach at a church near here, and he talked about World War II, D-day and V-day, and how the war was won on D-day but the victory didn't actually come until V-day which was sometime after. So the war's already been beat by Jesus on D-day when He came and hung on the cross and was risen, and we have the victory already, but V-day is still arriving, when He comes in His glory and it's kind of like that, how Paul was, he knows the victory was there, he's got to go forward, and it's coming but it's already came you know?

Photo: Jaime Owens

We're facing a brand new world today, how can we make Christianity more relevant?

The danger in trying to make things relevant, is that we try and sugar-coat the gospel, but then at times you've got to realize, I mean, I've driven down the street and I've heard this guy, he's holding his bible, shouting at cars going by, and you've gotta think the guy driving by at 60 miles an hour on that road, just sees you shouting the Gospel, you know what I mean?

So in a way you can say it's a word out of season, because people went out to hear John the Baptist, they heard what he was doing, they went to sit down, and spend time in front of him.

And as far as I know, it's only been 4 years, but a few years ago skateboard ministries got more popular, a lot of churches kind of thought it was crazy, because they thought it was a gimmick, some churches bring it in as a gimmick, they have like a little skate thing, and the kids don't really know who Christ is, and then you have some kids maybe sharing something, and they might not be so deep in their faith, living very secularized.

But the way you gotta do it though is, the Gospel is just meant to be preached and it's simple; it's receive the good news, repent, and follow Christ. All we gotta do is be sure we know what we're doing. It goes back to those same verses the Apostle Paul was saying, "I did not know sin but by the law". If you are going to go downtown today with one other person and share the Gospel, as long as you use the Word of God and you use the Law to challenge the proud, but you use Grace to exalt the humble, there's gonna be fruit bore.

Now to take it "How are we going to make it attractive?", you've got to walk in love, there's got to be a meekness, a boldness, a Christ-like disposition, but nowadays we get to use things like speakers and microphones, skateboards and bikes, and all these things. I'll tell you personally, I'm very skeptical to get involved in a lot of ministries because you got a lot of these guys, that have been around the church for years, that have a lot of business mind, and they will have a bunch of people come in and they will have microphones, they'll have this huge Christian band, but you don't really know how serious they are, you'll have a couple people that are agents, to handle all their business so they'll show up and they're getting a bunch of money, and then you'll have 5 skateboarders show up who are really sold-out and they want to bring the Word, and they end up getting put on the side as just skaters.

In a way, the church is disconnecting the kids who really want to know the skaters because they've seen this other flair, and the people that are coming in to see these big bands that may have the Christian title, but aren't really carrying the sword, they come there not really expecting much, other than to see their band, and they leave not really expecting much because they didn't get the Word preached to them.

So the way for me, is like look, there are a lot people who call and want us to do things, but if it's not where we can openly just preach the Gospel direct, you can sit everyone down, you can give your testimony, and you can share basically, that it isn't a one time prayer, or you can share that there's actual evidence in your life that He's in you, there's a regeneration, and there's a transformation.

So I guess, rather than go after all these things that we can do to strategize, just start being Christ like right now and as you see the fruits, people are going to be drawn to us, and you know there's probably a bunch of people with skateboard ministries right now that don't really know anything about skating and that's a good thing, but really, is that what they're called to do?

I can try to start Ultimate Fighting and become the UFA champ, but God hasn't called me to do that. It goes back to understanding who we are in the Body and in Christ, that we're all members of the same Body.

Describe a typical Brian Sumner day.

Get up probably around 8, 8:30, and that's a good day if I manage to do that. Take my son to school, or my wife will, then I'll watch my baby girl. I'll jump up and I'll normally get into some kind of prayer, just like a thanking of the Lord, because my mind isn't even awake yet. So I feel like for me to go get into the Word or to start praising Him that early, I'm not even thinking, and I don't want to just give Him 60% of my attention. So I'll wake up and sometimes I'll watch something I've Tivo'd or one of the Christian networks or I'll jump into all the emails because a lot my friends are from the east coast and we're behind so I can get my day started that way.

I'll get washed, I normally pray in the shower, I normally try to read the Word after that, then I'll go eat with my wife, or whoever is in town, we'll go meet up, eat somewhere, then we'll normally go skate somewhere, like one of the local parks or one of my sponsors places. Then mid to late afternoon try to film a trick. At night, we either go attend a couple different churches or we'll be goin' to our church "The Sanctuary" where we'll be doing some kind of Bible study. Or just having friends around and fellowshipping in downtown Huntington Beach. The only other time when things are different is when we're surfing or pretty much going out and doing full time ministry stuff.

I asked Christian about this, and I'm interested in hearing your response as well. Is there a duality in skating that is unique to it alone? Meaning, there's an opportunity for "quiet time", to be alone, focus on your work and meditate on God, and then there is a communal time where you can encourage and be encouraged by other skaters?

Personally, for me I can never separate this stuff because my mind is always spinnin'. We're filming a TV show "The Uprising" and the whole time I would have a microphone on, and a guy who's filming us will be able to hear everything I'm saying and doing, so when I'm skating around or about to share with someone I can say "Hey film this".

Photo: Brian Sumner

After a few weeks, a guy said to me "He just trips out on you all the time" cause he says all day I'm praying, and speaking, and I'm thinking things and I'm rebuking and walking around and I don't really realize I'm doing that.

So I guess, I'm all the time reflecting and I'm praying and I'm going after stuff. But in skating, it gets really intense, like when you're trying a trick, and you didn't stretch that week or you're about to do something you could get hurt on, it's like you get more challenged by the things you do in your daily life that are sinful, that you don't want to do, things will become so sharp, like "man why did I do that?". Because of the fear of getting hurt, you fear the Lord and you give up all those things.

But for me when I'm skating, a lot of things will come up about trying raise my kids the best way. What was the right time I used my voice and when was the wrong time. When was the right time to be doing this and doing that and when I'm deep in skating and trying to do something where I could get hurt, I'm always like "yes Lord I'll do this differently or I'll do that" and it isn't like I'm trying to sweet talk Him so I get the benefit of the trick, but I just feel like my mind is so open then, because it's just me and my skateboard, I'm not thinking about anything.

But skating in general, it's so divided nowadays. You can preach anything except for Jesus, you can preach sex and drugs, and partying. A lot of people have passed away in skating and it just gets covered up by "It's all good.." well man, people that I care about have died because of the things people have allowed them to fall into.

Or these companies that watch them come from other countries just like I did, they'll get sponsored and a year in the tour van with everyone, they can drink like crazy, they get stoned like crazy, and in two years time, they're like filthy and their clothes are hanging off of them, not that that's irrelevant it's not, but the point I'm making is that they're just this rock star little kid, who, even though he might be shredding on a skateboard, he's still attached to his addictions, and give him five years after skating and he's just gonna be thrashed, he's gonna be bound to rehab, he's not gonna have anyone picking up the tab for his life then because he won't be worth anything, it's sad.

We've only really seen a couple generations like that in skating, but then again, it's come back where even the old school guys who raged the parties and almost died, are like lifted up now, so they have kinda like the rock star lifestyle still.

It's dangerous you know, but this is the season. Think about it, who are my sheep?

But it could be five years after this when it's friends I really care about, friends that I've grown up with, who are in skating right now, making millions of dollars and getting all of the attention so they're not thinking about it. But give it a few seasons away, when life challenges them and they're probably gonna be thinking, "man, Brian's just always stoked, always excited". Even when those hard times come in and you don't know what to say, you don't do the right thing, I still know at the end of the day, that everything is outside of my hands, and I'm submitted to the Lord, you know?

The problem is that no one is perfect, the Bible says a just man falls seven times. We're always losing, but we're always winning when we are crucifying the flesh.

But there isn't a day that goes by that you didn't wish that you could have said something else better than you did. Especially, thinkin' about a guy my age, that we went through a divorce, I was over everything, two young children, probably gonna have another one soon, and you know all the answers are in the Bible, but how much are we submitting our flesh to that?

We are, we're headed away from where we ever were, but now it's a place where we're starting to understand each other, day by day we're breaking off all the junk that was put on us for years, that Christ has overcome, but we've still got to tear away, crucify our flesh ourselves, we've got to do that, He's done it but we're called to do it with Him.

Tell me about that reality show that you, Christian and Jay have going on, what's that about?

A couple of years ago, you know there was a couple of projects going around, we always talked about stuff, I felt the need to do a movie about Jay, Christian and myself. Each of us would have like a 20 minute part or 10 minute part. Just a way to give it to all of these kids in America, and Christians around the world, to see these guys stories, and see that we're living it, we're going after it, we're trying to just live the right way.

Pastor Jay felt like we would be having something that's on the air, some kind of show that was out there, whether he meant just preaching or whatever, he just meant that. I gave Ben Cerullo a call one time and said "Hey I really want to do this movie" and he said "I'll just make it for you, I'll hand you it, I don't want anything to do with it", and as we got through talks, it became, "Why not do a show, why not do some kind of reality show?"

We just got done filming 8 episodes, the premiere is going to be at our church this Saturday, and it's a really gnarly, crazy show. It's going to air on Inspiration Network, iChannel, Sky TV in England, it's gonna be in Australia, 80-140 million homes. It's called "The Uprising" and it's on steelroots.com. We're about to start filming season 2 in January. So 8 episodes for the first season and then 12 for the second season.

That's awesome, I read you went to art school, what role does art play in your life?

You know, I was just growin' up, there wasn't much I was into, just martial arts, and I guess just drawing. I don't really have the skills to do all this art, I couldn't draw anything in front of me and make it look much like it, but basically, to be straight forward, in Liverpool, all the best spots are in the city, and as soon as I finished school I was like "Ok, if I just go to school in the city, I go in there and I just draw some pictures for a few hours, and I'm in the city and I can just skate all day, then at night come home and sleep, then go in and do art again". I didn't really know what I would be doing, I didn't know that I would be sponsored there, I didn't know that I would be over in the US. It was just something that I did.

How did you get into art school if you didn't do art?

Well, I did art in school, I passed everything easy, I was good at it so they'd accept me, but I got a lot of good grades in school, so I could kind of do whatever I wanted. But over there, it isn't a big deal, you just pick art college kinda like to do whatever, I was 15 when I went there, I finished school at like 16.

So who were some of the skaters that influenced you?

Photo: Brian Sumner

Well, growing up I think the first guy I ever heard of was probably Tony Hawk. Then Geoff Rowley, he's from Liverpool, for years he was the guy I was watchin' do all this crazy stuff down stairs in Liverpool for years.

Who else... just everyone who skated good, their styles you know, I guess today I can't really say anyone because my mind's on other things, my mind looks at skating like its own individual thing, I can appreciate the tricks and the skills, but I can't subscribe to what everyone is doing because I do have kids and I see the influence that we have on America, and the world today.

There's guys I like to watch, I like to watch that kid Alex Olson skate, Sean Malto, there's all these kids that are around, and I just got back from this Reliance trip and the dudes on that tour are just absolutely killer. They're just guys people haven't fully heard of yet, that are on tour 7 to 8 months a year, skating demos and parks just to share the Gospel, and they're really, really good at skating and they're original. So skating's not mine, it's not yours, I mean it's mine individually and for everyone, but really it's it's own thing, it's you and a skateboard making some emotions come out of your body, you know?

See yeah, that's exactly back to what I was mentioning about you and your skateboard, I grew up skating and there was just no other sport like it.

Yeah there isn't.

Except maybe surfing.

Yeah, well you know, people believe you can just do anything and it's true in one sense, but in another it's not. Like, you got a guy like Eric Koston who's just so talented, that even if I worked as hard as I could all day, I'm not gonna be Eric Koston. But there's also gonna be kids who might not even care about him, and they might go, "I like this kid who just does all these other tricks, and does all this stuff". But the reality is you get to see, I mean, look at Guy Mariano, if you look at him the way he skates, no one skates like him, so part of what's so awesome is, you have years of this guy not being around and you see him doing all these tricks that you remember him doing, and the new ones, that progress now it's just awesome.

But you look at Transworld magazine today I guarantee you there's probably 4 to 10 ads of kids doin' the gnarliest tricks, that no one's even gonna think about because they're not pushed. Those guys weren't pushed, not even I was pushed years ago through the Tony Hawk videos, and the Birdhouse stuff, the Adio DVD's, to where your name's established on a different level.

Skating's so big and so ambiguous, that unless 5 bands get behind you and they all push at the right time... I guess what I'm saying is the tricks amature's are doing today, are so ridiculous, that if some of the pro's were doing them, it would just do so much more for the pro's careers, but because kids are used to liking who they like, it's more like it's their style, their character now, whereas you see so many tricks, you know what I'm saying?

Skating itself is progressing, but people just like who they like. How many times can a kid new show up and do 50 gnarly tricks? Where years ago for me, I had video parts and tricks that were progressing, and the whole skate world was united together, we were all doing it together at the same time, now it's just everywhere.

The industry, it represents what everyone thinks, but, like I said skating isn't anyone's you know? You can't look at that stuff and take that as skating. Skating's always been what's fun for me, I've never been a competitive person, so I can't get into this whole "I've got to go get the cover of this, and do this and do that".

Man, I like to skate and I know, within just even in the Christian world, what's been happenin' is there's a whole realm of kids there that are stoked and supportive, and want to back people who are down and gonna carry their cross, and it's like "Why am I gonna go chase the other side of the world, why not step into this?", and at the same time, go through the magazines and do the videos and do stuff, but they just know what I'm about.

On that note, what are some of the challenges you have had to face?

As a Christian skater?

As Brian Sumner

Nothin', honestly, it's all just, you know, I'm a guy with a wife and two kids, and obviously life's been a blessing, all the biggest challenges were things that we didn't understand and we've been trying to overcome them.

I mean, just get over all the things so we'll be better and better for each other first, it'll be better for our kids, better for people around us, you know be salt and light. But I'll give you an example, when I became a Christian, I could have quit Adio and rolled for this other brand, but I just said "Lord, I'm gonna just stay here, I'm gonna honor these guys, I like what they're doin', I'm gonna just have this shoe and let all these things happen, and if You want to bless me and You want to do this You do it."

The whole year the shoe killed, it sold as much as I've ever had, so two years later the guy said "Adio's doin' this, and I'm gonna leave" and I just said "Ok, I'm not gonna stay over there, I'm gonna go somewhere else", and I went and asked companies, "You know I'm gonna go share, I'm gonna go film this reality show, I'm gonna go around the world skating, but I'm gonna be preaching, I'm gonna be a Christian, are you cool with it?"

Nice skate shoes was like "Yeah, we're cool with that". So I said "Ok, I'm gonna ride for them".

I'd rode for Birdhouse for a long time, the video's finished, a lot of those kids on there, they don't know what they're doing right now, a lot of things going on with that brand that I don't really know what's next for them. They have a really good market with the Completes and with the Tony Hawk style of things, that's where I would take it if I were them.

Photo: Brian Sumner

Reliance shows up and they're like, they see this as the season, they want to really get involved in skating as much as they can, like the industry side, they want to be all about the Word and sharing the Gospel.

So for me I'm like "I'm gonna go over there and support them, and put my foot down and try to lift them up because they've been lifting Christ up" and when people look at the website they're gonna see all these kids that for 7 years have just been going around sharing the Gospel, and hopefully it's gonna just get them more and more attention because, here's what people have got to realize, you have so many people skating now, and a massive part of that does involve the Bible belt, it does involve kids that are raised in sports families, and they won't just let their kids watch junk, they won't just let them read the magazine with the curse words and the foul language, and all that stuff.

Even though there's a lot to follow there, that was kind of the way skating was and now it's changed, you have this whole division of who you're marketing skating to, you can have a video that plays on Fuel for a year, of your board brand, and it's gonna get you way more coverage than probably if you had 10 interviews in a magazine, even with great stuff you know what I mean? There's certain kids who are gonna buy your stuff that won't even read those things that their parents won't allow them.

You know when you go to a Christian event, you've got the Dad, the Mom, the kid that skates, the brother and sister that don't, it's like you're getting to reach out to all his family, skating's in their family, parents are supporting it because they're Christians, their kid isn't gonna be influenced by the bad side of it, and so in a way it allows us to go do what we want to do and bond with them and at the same time you are bearing witness to everyone else.

Do you consider yourself a perfectionist?

You know if I look back on my career, there's so many things that if I wasn't a Christian I'd be like "Why did I do that?" I went and rolled for a hair care company because my friend was there, and I just thought "You know what, if I don't go and do this, would I want to honor my friend?", I went and did it and it looked so silly, but if I wasn't a Christian and I didn't understand God's plan I could look at that and go "Why did I do that for?"

Or, there were times where I switched companies, and I was like "Why did I do that?" In that realm you always want to have a good record, but really, it all make sense now.

So I'm a perfectionist as far as like today, I'm not skating because I'm worn out, I don't want to go skate and just cruise around and not really tryin' because I feel like the Bible says you're to do all things as to the Lord. If I go messing around and not serious I could get hurt, but tomorrow, when I go skate, I want to be 110%. I want to do everything I can, so even if I come home sore and worn out, I know I tried to do everything I can with the gift He gave me.

But also too, if you become too extreme, it can be your focus rather than what the Lord is having you do, because we've got to be, within our church, we're so disciplined, I mean there's just the amount of effort that goes into presenting the Gospel, and having the place in order and lined up and a lot of people would say, "Well you should be focused more on other things" but we're so focused on the Gospel, that everything else you want it to be perfect down to the way the chairs are set, down to the way the music sounds, down to the way of all these things and that just kind of carries off in your life.

Yeah that's the perfectionist part I'm talking about, it seems like that comes with being a Christian in some sense.

Yeah, it is dangerous, because think about it, we just had a skate conference at our church and I preached on Daniel, and how Daniel purposed in his heart not to slack, not to go live the Babylonian lifestyle, which represents the world, and part of my reason for preaching that was "Look, you show up at a church and you can run around, all sweaty fighting each other in the corridors of the church and you skate the whole demo and you're talking about all this secular stuff and you share your faith in Jesus Christ but the whole rest of the time your mind was on something else."

Even though you're a Christian, you're not walking in the perfection, and the purpose that you're called to walk, because when you go into a church, when I go in there as a skater, they don't know how serious I am about the Bible, they don't know if I'm reading it, they don't know what I believe, they don't know what I'm listening to, and when a pastor sees you and you're sold out like that, you're trying to do everything you can, it bears witness to them, it shines a ray of light in their idea of skate ministry that "Wow, the Lord is using this" you know what I mean? And that's where maybe, it is you know, the position He's put myself and other people in right now, that there are so many kids in skate ministries, there's so many kids that are Myspacing me and have all these ideas and they want to do it.

Hopefully this generation, me being able to ride for these sponsors and laying it all down, allows people to go look and at those younger skate kids who are serious, and go invest funds into them to go and do these outreaches and go to the parks that I can't go to, go to the parks that the show isn't going to, that's how I look at it. If I can step out and do this stuff, it'll hopefully shine a light for them, they'll have people say "This is the season", and rather than go buying a new car and raffelling it off in the parking lot of your church, hopefully people will just come for something free, they'll all go and fast about it, receive a word from the Lord and go and sew their money instead into 5 outreaches that year for the skate community because skating is huge now.

I've been really digging those SkateBible trick clips you've been doing, one of the reasons I think they are really effective is that you're teaching kids how to pull off tricks, that's the tangible concept part, and also, I think the really cool part is that it's showing us Christians as real people with interests like anybody else.

Well, that's what's gonna happen, I think with me people aren't gonna care about the tricks, they're gonna go "this guy's really trying to be as serious as he can" and we are trying to touch those kids who are like in need of the Light. When you go to a demo and you meet kids that are getting molested or beaten, or that have been through hell, it stops you in your tracks you're like "What am I doing, I just do tricks and I think I'm cool, what's this all about, I don't understand who Christ is" it totally convicts and challenges you. Now, it could be some kid in Alaska and you're watching me talking about slappies and the next minute you're listening to a testimony and you're like "WOW".

But the coolest thing is he's hearing a testimony and he can do a slappy, you see what I'm saying?

What we're gonna do right now, is we're gonna get my whole site revamped, get all the Myspace's and the YouTube's and everything all lined up so it's accurate, and every time there's an update, it will hit everyone like, "Boom, boom", you know, it will just blast everyone.

I think that really captures what we need to be doing right now, it's teaching people to fish you know? It's like a kid who wants to skate, he might not come even to hear the Bible, but here's Brian Sumner teaching him how to do a slappy, he's like "WHOA" and then all of the sudden he starts checking you out and then you've got him bit, and at the least, if he doesn't bite, then he learns a new trick and he see's that Brian dude is a cool dude.

Yeah, and then in 10 years time, yeah, it's all between the Lord and them.

I think that's a really awesome thing you're doing with that.

Amen.

What's your favorite all time deck?

Photo: Reliance

There was a Jesus one I did one time with just the eyes it was the crown of thorns, and just now Reliance skateboards they've got 2 or 3 decks comin' out, one's a cheetah, one's Jesus Christ and one's a cross. I'd have to say for me personally, I've had these cool Bruce Lee graphics, I've had these old school secular bands kind of stuff I used to like and now, obviously none of that stuff means anything so it's gonna be something with Christ on it, and the cross, and scripture and everything. So probably my 2 newest Christian lookin' style boards on the Reliance brand.

Related

• The Uprising Is Here
• The Uprising on Steelroots
• The Sanctuary HB
• Brian Sumner
• Skate Bible

What is it about skateboarding that it can completely capture a young persons life as it did yours when you first discovered it? It really does become and obsession doesn't it?

Obsession is a word you could use, it's definitely a life-style, and really it's almost like salvation, it's kind of hard to explain, you've just got to experience it. There's nothing like standing on a skateboard and starting to roll, the freedom and the thrill that you get from just skating.

Did you plan to turn pro and make a career out of skating?

No, that was never my goal, I know for most guys that's a goal, to be a pro skater, but no that was never a goal of mine, it just kind of happened, I never really tried to pursue it, I'm just a skateboarder, that's all I've ever done and that's what I am and who I am.

You must have had a lot of natural talent to get in that direction.

Well, you know I just love skating, and it did kind of come natural to me.

Who were some of the pros that inspired you?

When I first started out there were all the guys like Bruce Logan and different folks like that, and then Jay Adams, Tony Alva and those guys were just barely ahead of me and stuff, and then all of those guys ended up becoming my friends.

That's cool, what year was that when you started skating?

I started skating in 73'.

How has the culture of skateboarding changed since then?

I've definitely seen skating go thru it's ups and downs, I've personally gone thru some ups and downs throughout the years as well, but you know, it's completely different. When I was skating, it wasn't cool, you got arrested for it, you were considered a loser, and you were treated like that. Now, its definitely become more mainstream, it's like the modern-day soccer. Even though there's that core element of skating that's still there, it's changed all together in acceptance and popularity. When I was at my peak in terms of ability in skating it was all underground, backyard pools, and building ramps.

Yeah, I had a mini half in my backyard in high school, and that was around the time that the "Skateboarding Is Not A Crime" stickers came out. It's interesting with skating in that it seems to have a continuous lifeline, but it sometimes goes thru some severe ups and downs where its almost completely dead and then it comes back with a roaring vengeance.

Yeah, there's definitely been ups and downs, you know like the late 70's and early 80's when all the skateparks started closing, they couldn't stay open because all of the insurance premiums were getting so high, and stuff like that. That's really when I was at my best in terms of skating and you know it was almost, if you skated, in like 1981, you were a real deal skater, you weren't skating because it was cool or anything like that.

Then of course, it began to transition as well to street skating and all that in the early 90's. I was living in a drug cave for years in the mid to late 80's and then I got radically saved in 1990 and I went from a drug cave to a God cave, so I didn't know a lot about what was happening in the skateworld at that time, because I was either focused on drugs, or I was focused on God. Of course then God gave me skating back and now with everything that's happening with skateparks popping up all over America, it's really rad.

Photo: Hosoi Skates

What's the difference with the skateparks that were going under and now skateparks coming back is it all about the insurance?

Well, the laws have changed, it's made it easier for people to have skateparks and most of the skateparks are being built nowadays by the cities. They're free and they're covered under their insurance and I'm assuming its probably real similar for them to build a skatepark in terms of insurance, as it would for them to build some tennis courts.

Well that's good news.

Yeah, for sure!

You've been through some serious hard times in your short life so far, do you find that a large part of the skaters today are in the same situation that you were?

There's definitely an element of that for sure, where you make wrong choices, and those choices lead to other things and it just snowballs and takes you down a road and it can end up nearly destroying your life. I remember when I was a little kid and in a skatepark, I can't remember how old I was but I was way younger than the guys I was hanging out with and I remember we went outside the skatepark, we were getting high and I was just puffin' a joint with these guys and I remember that was the very first time I ever saw cocaine, and they broke it out, chopped out a line and they started snorting it, and they were telling me "one day you'll be doing this" and I'm like "you guys are trippin' I'm totally content just puffin' weed", but sure enough, when I was 15 years old, you know I got turned on to my first line of cocaine.

How long was that after they had told you?

I can't remember, I was probably something like 12 or 13 years old. So it was 2 or 3 years later, and here I am doing the very thing I said I would never do. It lead me down a road that nearly destroyed my life. The first time I ever snorted cocaine, I remember, you know, after several lines I looked at the people that turned me on and I was telling them how thankful I was because it made me feel so good, and I was able to talk and socialize and all of that stuff. But it wasn't too much longer after that, that it began to turn on me, when I first started doing cocaine it made me want to socialize, I wanted to go to the party, and even though I was a teen I was cruising the clubs already. I wanted to cruise to the clubs, I wanted to hang out with all the people, but then once it started turning on me, I got isolated, I became paranoid, I didn't want to be around a bunch of people, all I wanted to do was the drug.

What is it in the skateboarding community in particular that you feel the burden for? Why skaters? Is it because you're trying to reach your own people or is it something apart from that?

I just want to reach people, it doesn't matter to me if it's a business guy driving a Mercedes and wearing Armani, I want to win everybody. I just do that where I'm at, you know, I try to help people where I'm at, how and where I live my life. For me, the way I do life is with a skateboard, it's just natural, and I think that's what it should be for everybody. Whoever you are, wherever you're at, just live for Jesus, live with Jesus and help people.

Photo: Jay Haizlip

You used to be into the whole Rockabilly, Punk scene right?

Yeah, I definitely was involved in that whole movement when it all first started in the late 70's here in Southern Cal.

Do you think coming from that background, that it's mostly a misunderstanding of rules that keeps a lot people from coming to Christ, I think many see it as a list of do's and dont's rather than a relationship in where God takes care of things in helping us?

I think for most people, definitely, they have an unrealistic view of what it's all about. A lot of times, when they start giving me their excuses like "people are like this, or something's gotta be like this" — in a nice way, I will challenge them on that, I'm like "have you ever experienced that?" and what I've come to find out, with the majority of the people with those excuses, the whole thing is based on hearsay, not on personal experiences.

You can't understand what it's like until you've experienced it, I tell people it's like my leather jacket. If you could put it on and wear it, you would never want to give it back. And Jesus said in John chapter 3 to Nicodemus, you can't even see the Kingdom of God except you're born again, and that word "see" means to perceive or understand. You won't be able to understand God's ways, his kingdom, anything that has to do with him until you're born again.

God's never gonna remove that equation of faith, it's gonna always involve taking a step of faith, everybody at some point is gonna have to say "Ok Jesus, I'm gonna step out in faith and put it in you, and I'm gonna trust you to do what you said in the Bible that you'd do" and when you do that, all the sudden the scales fall from your eyes, all the sudden the potential and the possibility of the kind of relationship you can have with God opens up and hopefully you discover it is a relationship.

It's like I have an awesome relationship with my wife, to facilitate her and I having a healthy, strong relationship where she trusts me, and I trust her, there are things that I choose not to do, because I know that if I were to do them they would damage or weaken our relationship, and so out of respect for her because she's given her life to me, and I've given my life to her, I don't do those things.

Some of them are communicated and some of them aren't communicated. There's things she doesn't have to tell me "I don't want you doing this, this and this", and then that's the same way in our relationship with God. He's given us his word which reveals his character, his nature, his preferences, and any of the things that he does lay down there in terms of "hey you don't need to do this" isn't for his benefit, it's for ours.

It's like a lot of the city parks you see where there's a playground for infant kids, they have fences around them. The fences are there to protect the kids, because if the kid wanders out of the park, the car is gonna run over the kid and kill him.

Yeah I think it's the misunderstanding with the rule concept, you don't do it as an obligation, you do it because you love the person right, it's really the whole flip of it.

Exactly.

I bring this up a lot, but I do so because I believe it's happening already, I feel we are in the midst of another renaissance, and one of the evidences of this is that I see Christians finally accepting their talents as God given and stepping out in them, no matter how unorthodox it may seem. For so long, from so many pulpits, we've heard that one should "give up everything and follow Christ", and while this is true definitely, I think it has been taken out of context and caused many talented Christians to abandon their talents as some sort of religious obligation. God has plans for those talents wouldn't you agree?

Without a doubt. For sure.

You know it's just like I did with Christian and Brian, we did a Nightline interview the other day, so here we're on ABC Nightline and one of the questions the guy was asking us was "are you guys copying the world?" I said "no, we're not copying the world". They didn't put all of it in there but basically, we've got the Michael Jordan and the Jimi Hendrix of the skateboard world, all of these avenues were their world, and they got saved, so we didn't stop using these avenues, we just used the same avenues that have always been there, we just started using them for Jesus now.

I think that's a key point though and I don't know if a lot of people have realized that yet.

Yeah and the proper application of "die to self and to follow to Christ" would be rather than using those platforms for selfish motives and it all being about me, use those same platforms and "I'm gonna to die to it all being about me, and it's gonna be about Jesus".

Obviously, if he's invested talents in people he's not gonna remit on those talents, he wants a return on them right?

What you're great at...

What you're terrible at God's probably....

[laughs all around]

And you enjoy what your'e great at most of the time right? So the joy gives you the endurance.

For sure, you do stuff you're terrible at, you get frustrated.

How did The Uprising come about and what's the goal?

The Uprising. Actually, we started I don't know how many years ago, but it started just as a tour, it was Christian Hosoi, Brian Sumner, Richard Mulder, Lance Mountain, Ray Barbee and myself, DJ Product, and the band Call to Glory. Basically, it started out as a tour and it still is that, but then we were approached and asked if we were interested in a TV show. Ben Cerullo, who's a good friend of mine, we had already been talking about that and felt that it was God's will and part of his plan and then sure enough, Inspirational Network and Steelroots approached us, and said "Hey, you guys wanna do a TV show?" and I was stoked and wanted to do it.

We sat down with Ben Cerullo from Inspirational Network and Steelroots and just cast the vision of what we saw it looking like and those folks at Inspirational Network were just stoked with it and it was a go and that's how it all started.

Our goal is two-fold; number one, first and foremost, is to get people saved, we want to introduce people to Jesus. Number two, it's to fan the fire and wake up the church, to passionately go after Jesus. That's our two-fold purpose, we want to spark a revolution, we want to be involved in a major move of God — an awakening.

How do you come up with the ideas for the episodes?

Well basically, they're not really scripted out, it's just real life, the only extent that we do in terms of that is, we just say "hey we're cruising over here" and the cameras and everything go with us.

Was The Uprising a segue to becoming a pastor or were you a pastor before that started?

I was already a pastor, everything that we do comes out of The Sanctuary Church out here in Huntington. The Uprising is a reflection of what is happening here in church and started here in church, the tour came out of church, the TV show came out of the church. I've been in ministry since 1990.

I was talking to Brian about that and he mentioned people are moving to California just to go to your church.

People are coming from everywhere to be a part of it, it's amazing.

What do you think it is about The Sanctuary that attracts people in that way?

Photo: Vision

Well, to me it's just normal, and sometimes I forget, matter of the fact most of the time I'm not aware of how it's really not that normal. Because it seems so normal to me, but I think when people come here and they see the diversity and they see the kinds of people that are here, they see we're definitely not perfect, but there's just an overwhelming unconditional love here, there's a genuine joy and acceptance of everyone and without compromising the standards of God's word or God's character and pushing God back in the closet to do that. In the same hand, the presence of God is usually very strong in our services, the presence of God shows up in a powerful way and we're very passionate in terms of chasing after Jesus, we want him with everything.

One thing that is very encouraging to me as I watch the Uprising shows, is that you guys come as people who other skaters can relate to, first and foremost on a peer level as skaters, and in addition to that you bring the presence of the Lord there for anyone who is open, but you don’t push it or jam it down anyone's throat.

Right.

I think that's very attractive.

You know Smith Wigglesworth, he lead somebody to Jesus just about every single day and he would pray and a lot of times he'd go down to a park down by his house and he would sit there and wait for the Holy Spirit to show him who was ready. One time he was driving in a car with somebody and he told this guy "you gotta go up here" and they went to the top of this mountain and Smith Wigglesworth made them get out of the car, and they sat on the edge of this mountain and the guy was like "there's nobody around here, who's he think he's gonna lead to Jesus up here" and then after a period of time, here comes a mountain climber climbing up the side of the mountain and Smith Wigglesworth led the guy to Jesus.

It's kind of like being a fruit inspector, you share Jesus with everybody, you kind of reach out to them in a loving, gentle way and if the door opens and there's an opportunity to take the conversation to the next level, then you take advantage of that.

Let’s talk about leadership. Would you say that you have been a leader most of your life?

Maybe to some extent you know, I guess I was always the guy who was the life of the party and stuff like that, I was never a leader in the sense that I tried to dominate or control people, but I was always a leader in the sense that I didn't do what everyone else did just because they did it. I always thought for myself and there were many times that I wouldn't do what everybody else did. So I was a leader in that sense, and then obviously when I got saved, that was part of God's plan, I'd always had favor on my life and God's the one who put it there, so it just started being used for the right purposes. I just started using who I was to connect people with the Lord.

Where does your confidence as a leader come from? Sometimes there is a fine line between self confidence and pride, and on the other hand a diminishing of self confidence with more of a focus on the Lord, can often lead to not seeing the strengths in oneself that the Lord has given us.

Well, I can only tell you how that works for me, I mean, for me the more God uses me, the longer I walk with God, the more frail and weak I see I am, I see my inabilities, I don't focus on those, if I were to focus on those it would paralyze me, but it creates this desperation in me to cling to God. My confidence or courage comes from him, so I just cling to Jesus, and I realize that in him I can do anything, all things are possible in Christ and if God's called me to do it, he'll give me the power and ability to do it. I'm always desperate, I'm always desperate, God, I've gotta have you, Lord you've gotta help me, God you've gotta give me the power, the strength, your presence, Lord you gotta hook me up. Lord if you don't come thru, I'm a failure, this is gonna be a horrible crash. So that's the way it is for me.

That's the exact point you hit on there, and that's the reason I asked that question, you said that if you were to focus on those frailties and weaknesses, it would freeze you right?

Exactly.

I've pretty much done it the same way you have and what I've noticed is that people will come to me sometimes and say that I'm selling myself short and not recognizing what I have the ability to do, and in the context of leadership, if you don't portray that you have the confidence to do something, it spreads.

Right, yeah, just like in Joshua chapter 1 where God instructed Joshua to cross over into the promised land, he said to be strong and of good courage. In Joshua chapter 1 he tells him that several times in that chapter. Only be strong and of good courage. I'm confident in the Lord. Humility is not like some oppressed beggar, walking around with your shoulders and head drooping going "I'm just the scum of the earth" that's not humility that's oppression, humility is an inward realization that without Christ you are nothing, but in him you're everything, and my confidence is in him and when it comes to leading, I always reflect anything that God's done, I always reflect it back to him and you can do that in a humble way without acting like you're insecure. When somebody comes up and compliments me, if it's like preaching, I say "I appreciate it" but God knows that I know, that if he doesn't hook me up, I'm preachin' terrible.

[laughs all around]

But if I'm out skating or something and somebody's like "Dude that was a killer trick!" I'm like "WOOOOO I'm stoked!"

What is the greatest thing that you have personally learned as a leader?

Hmmm, the greatest thing I've ever learned as a leader...I don't know if I'd call it the greatest thing, but I just love people. I love people. I love and believe in people, I give everybody an opportunity. I don't know if I can say what is the greatest thing. I've never had anybody ask me that question. Obviously, the greatest thing that can happen to anybody is a relationship with Jesus Christ. But you know, I don't know if I've learned it yet.

Ok that's good, that's a good answer.

Often the leader is the one saddled with the vision, frequently it can be clear, others times not so clear, how do you keep on course?

That's exactly how it is and sometimes it's more vague in the sense that ok, you have a direction but you don't see the full picture, the Bible talks about we look thru a glass dimly. Sometimes it's very precise. I just stay focused on whatever it is, and then I understand that even though I may not see the full picture, at least I have the direction, and the vision operates like a compass, it points in the direction I'm to go in, and so I'm to make my decisions, I gotta make sure that I'm prioritizing properly, that what I prioritize comes in line with the vision, what God's plan is, my resources, that I use those in a way that it reflects the vision, the priority.

Even when it's vague, and there's those seasons or days or moments where you don't see everything, I just trust and rely on the fact that God said if I acknowledge him in all my ways that he would direct my footsteps, and I know that he does that and hindsight is 20-20, you can look back and say "Wow, God's ways are perfect!"

Photo: Hosoi Skates

Have you ever had to change course, and if so, do you feel it was the vision changing course or you needing redirection?

There's definitely been moments where I can say ok, I missed it, and there's been seasons where God had me doing something in a particular way. For years I was primarily an evangelist. There was a point where I had this big huge 2000 seat tent on a Peterbuilt tractor trailer, and I went to inner cities of America and I put it up in the worst neighborhoods and sometimes I'd be there for a week, two weeks.

Wow, how long did you do that?

I did that for several years, and there was a season I know that I know, that God had me do that, he gave me a vision, he supernaturally provided all of that stuff. But then when it came time for that season to end, the doors to do that began to gradually close and the doors to go to the next phase of ministry which was preaching more in churches and doing these large youth events and things like that began to consume all of my time where I really wasn't having that many opportunities to take the tent into the inner cities and eventually it was obvious. "Ok I got all of this stuff, this tent, this tractor trailer and I'm not using it anymore because I'm consumed and totally busy over here" so I sold it all.

Then when God began to put it in my heart about moving back here to Southern California to start a church, at first I didn't know it was to start a church, at first I thought God just wants me to just move there so that I can increase in terms of influence on the West Coast. But the closer it got time to move here, God required us to take a step of faith. I sold my house, no promise of anything, and to make a long story short, me and my family came here to Southern California, we started a church in a community center and really, we took a step of faith you know, when we drove across the desert, we were leaving one life to go and start another one, and there was really no promise other than what we had in our hearts and spirits from God.

A lot of people said "Well you're crazy dude, you're well established, you're successful, you've got a great house, you've got a wonderful family [because of the level of success you have in ministry, there comes a certain element of security when it comes to things like finances and all that], you're walking away from all of it" to a lot of people that looked crazy. To the natural mind it was crazy. Coming to one of the most expensive places in the world to live, renting a house, just renting a normal house is 2-3,000 dollars a month.

How do you manage the business aspects of your projects like The Uprising, are you a natural businessman?

I don't consider myself a natural businessman, obviously doing what I do, there has to be an element of administrative involvement that I have to have, but what I try to do is to surround myself with a team that's strong where I'm weak, and even though I have an eye for detail, there's a lot of things that I'm not great at doing. I get frustrated, whereas somebody who is gifted in an area say administration, they can do something in a day that would take me a whole week, and they can enjoy doing it, where I wouldn't. But I pay attention to make sure those things get done. I just try to build an awesome team where we're all committed to one another, we're all on the same page, we understand we're all fighting for the same thing, we're headed in the same direction and we understand that we need each other to make it happen.

Speaking of teams, what’s it like having people like Christian Hosoi, Brian Sumner, Lance Mountain, Richard Mulder and Ray Barbee around you, that’s a pretty strong group of guys.

All those guys are awesome, all those guys are wonderful guys. They all are very unique and different in terms of their personalities and stuff, it's really cool.

What advice do you have for the entrepreneurial readers out there who want to start their own career or business or ministry?

One, you definitely gotta hear from God, and do your best to your ability to follow his leading and that can be a hard place to find sometimes where you don't get ahead of God, but you're not lagging behind where God wants you. I guess the one thing I would have to tell people would be nobody succeeds without failure.

I don't know how many attempts it took Thomas Edison to figure out the light bulb but it was crazy. Colonel Sanders, he had his special recipe and it was hundreds, and hundreds of times and he got rejected, he went from person to person, "I got this special recipe for chicken", they said "nobody wants to buy your chicken" but finally he landed on one person that said "we'll give it a shot" and the rest is Kentucky Fried History!

It's like the drive thru window, it was one guy in lower management at a McDonalds years ago, he went to upper level management and said "I believe that if we put a hole in the building and put a window in it and start selling food out of it people will be stoked on that". Upper level management said "Americans don't want to eat in their car they want to come in and sit down", but the guy was persistent he wouldn't let up and finally just to get the guy off of their back they said "ok we'll give you one restaurant to try it in" so they put a window in there and 80 something percent of all business that is done in McDonalds is done thru the drive thru window. It was all because of one guy's persistence and he didn't take no for an answer.

What’s on the horizon for Jay Haizlip, any new projects coming up?

Well our goal here at the church, we've got more vision than we could ever accomplish in our lifetime, but short-term goals, we're buying the property were we're at here, we're building a building and gutting the building out we have here and enlarging it. We're positioning ourselves to begin to plant churches somewhere here in the near future. We're gonna be planting churches in the major cities of the world, we were recently in London, scouting it out, we had our feet on the ground praying "God what is your plan, your future, your purpose for us here in London" and I know God spoke to us about London. We're gonna plant a church in Berlin, we're going to plant a church in New York City. That's kinda the next phase we're gonna go to within the next few years to come.

Related

• The Sanctuary HB
• The Uprising Is Here
• The Uprising on Steelroots

Photo: Michael Rowe Photography

Hotrods, Rat Fink, Sermons and the Bible. Somewhere, smack dab in the middle of that you'll find Jay Bakker. Jay shares with us his thoughts and views on Christianity and the Arts. Location: Blackbird Parlour - Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

I like it when you speak about Christians as unique individuals. I feel this becomes incredibly important when we talk about Christianity and the arts, where musicians, artists, actors and poets need to develop the characteristics that make them unique through their work. What are your thoughts on this?

Well, I think it's really important for artists, musicians, and folks in any realm really, to stay unique and interesting in their art because what we see alot of today is Christians or people who become Christians- we see it alot with actors, and they eventually throw their careers away and become second rate.

One of the things that inspired me is Johnny Cash thought about quitting music and doing preaching and he was talking to Billy Graham about it and Billy Graham looked at him and said- "I'm a preacher, you're a musician, you need to stay a musician, that's the talent that God has given you, stay with those talents."

Obviously, we see the impact that Johnny Cash's life and music has had on us. Not all of his music is Christ based, and I think if someone like a Stephen Baldwin would have stayed doing like Unusual Suspects, sometimes things like that I think give people encouragement; that I can be a believer, but I can still practice my art, I can still communicate, I can still act, I don't have to be a Christian character every time I have to act. I can still use my talents for the Glory of God.

I wish more people would do that, but I think there's alot of pressure in society, I think alot of ministers want to use those people as bait in a way, so they bring them down and tell them "don't do this, do this..." I think it's more of a disservice than a service. To take someone who has not felt called to preach, or called to the ministry- it might be an amazing football player, and you tell them to give up their career playing football and become a preacher.

Then they become preachers and they don't know what they're saying half the time. We've seen that happen with a famous football player, he was preaching a sermon and I can't remember exactly what he said, but it became this huge controversy. Not that everybody can't preach, but it seems like he had a calling of something that he could really do and what happened was it caused him to lose alot of his career opportunities. And I don't think that's because he was being persecuted as a Christian, I think it's because we have alot of misguided stuff out there.

I think we saw Bob Dylan go through that, where it was either all or nothing, and I think there's a danger in that because

One of the first things that attracted me to Revolution was your branding- cards, t-shirts, stickers and posters, it's very unique and consistently so. How does art play a role in your identity?

I'm always fascinated with graphics and things that move me. I don't own an old car, but I buy hotrod magazines all the time, because they inspire me. The art, even the lowbrow art inspires me. It's kind of like what Vince said, that when he's preaching it gives him inspiration to do his music. For me, seeing these guys using these different techniques for art and stepping outside the norm and doing something that...it has become more acceptable, but at one time it was not very culturally acceptable.

Design: Wes Montgomery

Like Rat Fink was made to be against Mickey Mouse you know? These guys were willing to just try something new and completely different and come up with something that had never existed before, to me is really exciting.

To me, it was alot of fun making t-shirts, not like let's do this to make money, it's just a part of expressing ourselves and who we were. Always, if I had a favorite band, I wanted to wear their t-shirt. I thought it was a neat way to get involved with the community that we were involved with. Alot of our friends were in bands and maybe we could make t-shirts too and do stickers and stuff.

I owned a skateboard clothing company with a friend of mine in 93', 94' called Saturday Skateboarding. I really enjoyed doing that, and during that I was also working at Revolution so I said let's just do a t-shirt with our logo on it since we're making them and see what happens. I just enjoy it, I enjoy sitting down and designing stuff. It's really wild. We have "Religion Kills" and I saw a kid with that tattooed on his arm when I moved here. I remember sitting down, with a pencil, I still have the book, just drawing something out, and then to see it on somebody's arm. You know, it's also part of the tattoo culture- imagery, and I've always liked imagery.

It's amazing that it meant that much to him to actually make a tattoo out of it.

Yeah, I really felt like it meant something to him, you know that's why we do it. Move people and get them to think.

Often art is connoted with beauty, and that beauty is an inspiration. On the other hand, I think for art to be genuine, it has to embrace life in its fullness which isn't always beautiful. I'm constantly inspired by musicians like Johnny Cash and Townes Van Zandt, who had weathered through tremendous storms, sometimes self inflicted, sometimes not, but through those experiences they managed to create beautiful works of art, granted they may not always be "pretty" but they are honestly transparent and speak of real experience.

Do we need to redefine the idea of beauty and what it's role is?

Oh, definitely, I mean on many levels. I think about fashion magazines and what it does to young people. We can walk out on the street here and see these kids who are rail thin, and I can guarantee at least one out of ten has an eating disorder; male or female. We've got this false perception of what beauty is and what beauty can be. I think what inspires me about Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan and guys like that is seeing so much of their art come later in their lives, they all had this really down time that was hard and rough. But it brought a sort of genuineness out of this bankrupt time in their art.

I think we've got to look at everything as beautiful and seeing hurts and pains from the past should be more validating for peoples art because it comes from experience. It comes from a place where I remember when nobody cared about me, or I remember when nobody wanted to listen to one of my records. It allows you to become more transparent. I think anytime you go through great loss or great pain, especially the type like losing my mom and things like that, it puts things in perspective and that's where you're really able to understand and enjoy the beauty of what you're doing with like the church; there was a time in my life when I wanted a huge church, not a 1,000 member church, but you know, a couple hundred people, because I thought that was success.

And I didn't want people to not like me, but I always preached sermons that were controversial and that really tore me up for a while. I didn't understand why people didn't want to hear about grace. But, what happened for me was, when you lose things that are close to you or you see how petty we can be with certain things, it allows you to put things in perspective and learn how to deal with things.

That's when ugly things do become beautiful. Like in that U2 song "Grace" Grace takes ugly things and makes them beautiful, and that's true, and we're able to share our experiences and appreciate through the gritty and ugly times, really appreciate, and see God in the simple things. Like maybe going to a movie, or going to a museum, or walking down the street, or a hotrod magazine. You see alot of fighting in the church today, and all of this us against them kind of thing, and you start to realize these are things that are so petty.

Design: Clay Summers

I think what we have to do is to define the difference between the real beauty of what Christ has given us and there are some really ugly things out there that I don't think should be considered beautiful, but should be considered as this is a waste of my time, and this is keeping me from being who God's called me to be and it's keeping me from loving all people.

As a pastor, one of your roles is to inspire people to action, to provoke a response and encourage a change of mind where it's needed. Sounds alot like the role of an artist no? Do you feel that this is your art?

Definitely, it's a calling. It's my purpose. Just like there's alot of people who's calling is art. To me, it's very free-form, I don't like to prepare sermons way in advance, usually I prepare my sermons the day of. I like them to be really fresh and honest and transparent. I think I'm more self taught in how I preach so I guess it is an art in a way- my own personal art. The thing is about art, you can't compare Ed Roth to Van Gogh, but you can appreciate both of them just as much. And you can't compare me to Joel Osteen, we both have our form and the way we do things. So in that way, for me, it's very art, its free-flowing, top of the head, very straight from the heart, not that the other isn't but maybe it's more prepared, more elegant.

I was trained as a fine artist, as a painter, I start out a painting with a blank canvas, sometimes I would purposefully lay down a shade of gray or any other color before I start painting just to get away from staring at a white field of nothing, other times this field of nothing was quite useful as I would sit and meditate on it until something starts to form. Are your messages that way, do you feel the Lord lay something deliberately on your heart and then there are other times when your experience speaks back to the Lord and that becomes a message?

Oh yeah definitely.

Is one more inspired than the other?

No. I mean sometimes one might be more inspired on a particular day. Or sometimes I go in with a plan and it's completely different and there's sometimes I come in ill-prepared and God uses that.

And I'll work around the mistake, and incorporate the mistake into it, and it's kind of like when I preach, the insecurities, or I say a word wrong or I get nervous. You just continue to go to the end. So in the same way that I draw, I'm gonna go from the beginning to the end, I can't even tell what it is sometimes in the middle even though I know what it's supposed to be, I try to morph it into what it should be, but it's not always what I expected it to be, but it does come out as a final product.

Something that people get something out of, and when I draw, I get something out of it and I'm able to learn from that and either take it to another level or like, I've got some pieces that I'm just really happy with the way they were. I have one of a skeleton, of a skull face with a flight cap, because I love logos. I kept messing up the color of the face, and finally, I ended up putting so much stuff over it, it became texture, it's almost like a bone feel to it. But that came from constantly trying to move past the mistake and learn from the mistake and even sometimes getting myself in deeper, but eventually, the outcome was really beautiful.

And I've done that a million times preaching. It's where I thought, oh man I'm not gonna get out of this.

It must be terrifying.

Yeah, it is and then God shows up. When I was in California I was preaching a sermon and you know I do little sidebars, and rabbit holes...

You do? [enter sarcasm]

Yeah, yeah, believe it or not, and I was referring to the woman at the well as a sidebar, but I got this huge revelation from that, and I went off of that and it shook me so bad, I mean it was so amazing that God revealed that to me while I was in front of a crowd of people, I was like "we're done, this is what was supposed to be said, and we're done". It was one of those things where it was going one way and it decided to go a whole other way. It's like freestyyyle...[laughs]

Speaking of...Music. I know that you are a die hard music fan- I am as well. Here's a question for you - Can you tell me why I don't listen to Contemporary Christian music?

Why you don't? I think alot of Contemporary Christian music is so contrived and alot of times it's trying to fit into the industry standard because it does become about a bottom line. It's probably like the music in the 50's and 60's when you had a really talented person, and then the producer comes in and says no, this is the way that we're doing it and you have to sing 5 songs from our catalog. It's unfortunate, because Christian music should be more genuine than probably any music.

But that's not the state we're in right now, so I'd say probably some of that, and people get lazy because they can get famous real fast in the Christian scene and make it big there. There's probably guys that make more money than any of us put together at this table combined, who we could go through this room of people and ask if anybody's heard of them and they would say "no". But you could go to a church and everybody in the place would know who they were. So there's not that tendency to make better art.

That's an extreme point but, you know, the search for perfection that may never be. But it seems like Christians just put stuff out, there are alot of great Christian artists, but the strange thing is, when you find all these really talented guys, you usually end up having to go outside of the church, because alot of the Christian book stores put boundaries on them so they aren't able to express their art in a true, honest way. So they get out of it, and it's really the ones that are willing to play ball and live under a sort of imaginary standard that religious tradition has put on them so you lose alot of genuineness in that, that's probably why you don't listen to Christian music.

Who are some of these genuine ones?

David Bazan from Pedro The Lion, bands like MxPx, their music's probably not the deepest music in the world but...bands like Me Without You, I don't listen to alot of Christian music either so it's hard for me to think, because I felt like when I listened to Christian music, there's a culture that goes along with it, it's almost like a scene, like all or nothing, and I really embraced the scene, but unfortunately, not the people, but the organizations built around the people, did not embrace me.

What I was looking for was something different, a different message, rather than a different style. What I found was just a different style like "we look crazy and we have great music" but we all still believe the same things, you know, and we're still all tied up in religious tradition. And it seems like if anyone breaks off from that, they're not involved anymore.

So I guess that's one of the reasons I don't listen to alot of Christian music, because it's hard to find great stuff out there, you know all of the places these guys play I was speaking at, but when I didn't add up to everything they expected of me and I didn't agree with all of their theology on these different events, they stopped having me. Then there's no freedom of expression and what if God does want to reach the Gentiles, what if Jesus decides to call a Pharisee to reach the Gentiles, oh now we can't do that and it's like we've locked it and said that the Bible is the last word, and now we've locked it and that's dangerous because God's still alive. Even the Bible can be a living entity, and I think that's what happens in the Christian culture, we just want to stay in one place and we don't allow God to be continuously God.

I'd like to get your perspective on teams, and specifically on team size. It seems from its conception Revolution has been a very hands on effort with a limited number of hands. How has this helped you, and what are the biggest challenges?

It's been easy for me to keep it small because not alot of people show up! No, but having a ministry is hard work, and it can burn you out. And I've seen many people go through burn out through Revolution, and who've worked with Revolution and had to move on. I even got burnt out for a year, but I've been doing it pretty much since the beginning except for one year. I just think there's something special about community and I think what's different now is we've seen opportunities here in New York where we can maybe do few things to really make the church explode, but not really wanting to do that at this point.

Design: Clay Summers

I think that's because of the team, and I look at the team aspect of it, and what is so important is, you know maybe I would be the point guard or the quarterback, whatever, but coming from someone who doesn't know sports at all [laughs], for me, I like to preach my sermons, I've got a vision for what the ministry is, but if it wasn't for someone like Vince, who has a fresh vision for something that I've been doing forever, and says hey, let's try to get some more people from the church involved, or let's do this, ok, and then those people come in and say we want to do this and we want to do that, that has to be a team effort.

I think a church has to be a body of people working together with a similar goal, but not all the same purposes or passions. Some people might have passions for social issues, some people might have a passion for the arts, but finding those people and getting us together on a common ground to communicate that and to work together as a team, and that's been a struggle in the past. Specially when you're doing something a little rebellious, because rebels are always such individuals, so you get a bunch of rebels who are trying to be a team and sometimes that can be a bunch of people trying to outdo each other. Or then you get the people who just expect the leader to do everything.

I've gotten to the point where I've had to become comfortable with the fact that I like to prepare sermons, I like to preach, I like to write thank you letters, I like to design shirts, but I don't necessarily know, or enjoy setting up this outing, or I'm not thinking, Oh, Easter Sunday is coming up, we should do Communion, to me, I'm just gonna go speak, and someone like Vince comes in and says we should do this, and someone else says, I make bread how about that?

What happened with Easter Sunday was it became a team effort, and the whole church really participated in it. But that was because of individuals coming together as a team. If I was to do church on my own, I would be better to quit Revolution and just become an evangelist.

thinking that I need to make sure that I do everything. Being comfortable in who God has called me to be and being comfortable in allowing God to use the people in the church too. It's ok if they do something successful, and they did it. I don't have to take the credit for it, you know what I mean?

It's ok, and allowing God to operate that way, and dying to yourself, and that's brutally honest, but that's part of it you know, and being comfortable in that, not just being the shining star, and that's what we're trying to do here. The last church I built was really based around me, not on purpose particularly, but because I preached all the time and never had anybody else preach. Not because I didn't want to, I just thought I had to be there, and now I've come to a point in my life where I don't have to be and a matter of fact, It's better if I'm not, because it allows the body to be the body, and not a group of people coming to see a preacher. I'm being very comfortable in that and finding alot of peace in that.

So it's important to have the right people around you.

You've got to have the right people around you, it will make you or break you. There's been times when it's broken me, and it's broken the people around me. There's been times when I wasn't a good leader, and these were people who had a captain that didn't know how to steer a ship. That was a difficult time, and now I'm letting other people help me steer the ship, and I'm able to call them and say, can you do this, and please do this, but before I think I operated out of fear, and insecurity. A team of people is very important, and the sum is always greater than the one.

Related

• Revolution NYC
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Design: Jesse Stephens

Jesse Stephens is just one of those guys. You know the type- extremely talented and can basically learn how to do anything. His art and music is imbued with one overriding characteristic- simplicity. But as one who masters the art of simplicity knows, there is often more there than meets the eye.

I’ve looked forward to doing something like this with you for quite a while now. It’s been a few years since we first collaborated on photoshop tennis matches – which, I will ad, was a very enjoyable and inspiring experience (Jesse and I had the longest running photoshop tennis match on baseboard.net history at one time, which you will have to take our word for it, since baseboard.net is no longer).

For you, which came first – design or music?

They have both always been there, my Dad's a musician and also an artist, so I’ve always been doing it. I’ve always been into drawing ever since I was a kid, I don’t remember not drawing and I also don’t remember not playing an instrument either. One of my earliest memories is taking piano lessons, I was about 6- I’m not very studious though so I wasn’t very good [laughs]. But yeah, always music and I’m counting design and drawing as the same thing just one lead to the other.

Piano is your first instrument?

Yeah or the ukelele, there’s some funny photos of me carrying around a ukelele in my nappy.

Did you go to school for either music or art, or are you self taught in both?

I studied 2 years of design after high school and I did 3 years of piano theory during high school but I gave that up because I can’t practice.

Photoshop Tennis. Design: Jesse Stephens

I’m extremely envious of your ability to express yourself in both the audio and visual art forms. I’d picked up the guitar a few times when I was younger but never had the discipline to stick with it, I always ended up right back with the visual arts.

But even today I feel something inside of me that desires to be expressed through music. Can you talk about your experiences with that? Are there times when only a visual expression will suit the inspiration and vice versa?

Yeah, not really. I’ve never really felt that particular with the visual. I tend to spread myself pretty thin. I’m not as good as I’d like to be at everything, and because design is what I do for work, I don’t tend to get emotionally involved very much in that. Whereas music was always an outlet, especially in those difficult teenage years when all you want to do is sit in your bedroom and play nirvana songs [laughs]. So music has always been the emotional thing for me, not design.

It seemed like you put emotion into our photoshop tennis shots.

I guess I do, yeah true. That all comes out of what I’m feeling at the time, but that’s really only a bad emotion- a kind of disgust, hurt or sadness, that’s the only sort of emotion I feel that I can effectively convey with what I do. If I try to convey contentment and happiness it comes across as corny and cheesy for me.

Through your music and design?

Both ways yeah. I’m not good at humor. A lot of it is quite dark when I look back at it, I know what I was reading at the time, I might have been reading a book and it just sort of sparked it. There’s a few I can think of that are pretty heavy. I wish I could be more positive with it, but it just doesn’t seem right.

I was reading a letter the other day that Pope John Paul wrote to artists, in it he says that “The Spirit is the mysterious Artist of the universe” and that “there are many impulses which, either from within or from without, can inspire your talent. Every genuine inspiration, however, contains some tremor of that “breath” with which the Creator Spirit suffused the work of creation from the very beginning” He then goes on to say that its this divine breath that reaches out to human genius and stirs it’s creative power.

Do you recognize that process in your work?

What about you?

No, I don’t think so, that’s a tough question for me. [Serious long thought] Good luck typing this one up! I don’t even know who I would say is inspired. Obviously, we’re given these gifts by the fact that we’re created with the ability to love, and to enjoy music and to play and to enjoy a work of art in any way, and that people have been given the ability to create these things and to enjoy them is a reflection that we are made in Gods image. I would just never say that my work…yeah… it’s just too big.

Like I said, I have a lot of difficulty conveying good emotions, or positive emotions so the things that really move me to write or to do things are often anger or frustration or darkness, darkness is just sort of a feeling I guess, It's something I can't process unless I do it.

Some people do it really, really well, I sort of envy that, even Sufjan Stevens, he's able to write about his love of people, and family- he's still got a tinge of sadness which I can relate to a lot. Even about his faith he can write sort of really obvious lyrics about his faith and not come across as really corny. It's interesting.

I know that you have been working for quite a while on an album. How is it coming along?

I was hoping you weren't gonna ask me about that! Yeah, I've been sidetracked, I'm still working on it, one day I'll finish it.

What are some of the challenges you've faced so far with it?

Me, and my creative process- I'll put something down, and maybe I'll buy a better mic or get better equipment, or I think of a better idea, which means I've got to redo everything again basically. Which, isn't true really, I don't have to but that's just the way I feel and the way I end up doing it. So at the moment I have to redo all the vocals [laughs].

That is a good lead-in to my next question, would you consider yourself a perfectionist, if so, do you ever see that as an obstacle to progress?

[laughs all around]

Ahhh yeah, it's a huge obstacle. It's probably my biggest obstacle. It's funny though, I don't expect perfection, and alot of my favorite artists are people who have imperfections in their work- an out of time drum beat, or a wrong chord, or bits and pieces of noise, that sort of stuff. But, for some reason, I can't leave any in my recordings. I sort of have to be able to listen to it with other people and not think "I should have fixed that". Which is really stupid, but it's the way it is really.

Photoshop Tennis. Design: Clint Fisher

That's why those Photoshop tennis things were really great, you work on them for such a limited time and you put them out and they go on and you can't take them back once they're out. Even like now, if I release a demo, I'm disinclined to bring it back and work on it just because it's out there the way it is and people like it for what it is. But if no one has ever heard it, then I'll work on it forever and continue to work on it just because- I can I guess. And then there's people like you who I show the good stuff to and they say "I like the old one better".

[laughs all around]

Which really sucks!

You hinted at it before, but is there a recurring theme in your work, something you constantly address in one way or another?

Yeah, probably. Most of my songs are about family and friends, just relationships and how I deal with them.

Are you interested in pursuing a career with your music, or is it something that you just want to always do whether its the main thing you are doing or not?

Yeah, it's just something I enjoy doing. I've been doing a lot of recording for other people as well, my brother and his band, also another friend of mine- recording and sort of collaborating as well. I enjoy the whole process, so it's not just song writing I guess. I'd have to do the swap, where music is the 9 to 5 and then design would probably fall into that slot that music currently occupies.

How much has your daughter changed your artistic life, do you have new perspectives and directions?

I cry a lot easier. I was always pretty easy on the cry but these days... I was reading Kurt Cobains suicide note yesterday and welled up. He said something about his daughter and how she just reminds him of what he used to be like- happy, unaffected- it's just so sad.

Yeah, well that's funny isn't it, because that's the only song I've ever been able to write that's happy, is a song about her.

Have I heard it?

No.

And it's happy? That's good!

Well... It's not happy.

[laughs all around]

It's like a 4 letter word!

I guess it's nice. It's about a nice thing.

I remember a while back you saying that Sufjan Stevens played a large part in re-energizing your faith. Can you share your experience with that?

Did I say that? Yeah, I definitely found his ability to put it out there and write about it, is a definite point in time for me.

but his music didn't annoy me or bug me, it was kind of really- "yeah this is right, this is what it should be about, you should be writing these kinds of songs, praising God". You know that's what all the Psalms are about- David, all he did was write about God and how great he was. I wish I could do it. I really envy that. It did give me that new perspective on things. I still sort of struggle with things, but.. that's just the way it is with me.

For a couple of years now, I’ve felt that we are just on the edge of a real creative renaissance. I think the time is ripe for authenticity and honesty, and that it’s our generation that is going to lead the arts into really meaningful directions where creativity and spirituality are more intertwined then they ever have been.

Do you think there is something big on the horizon?

There's probably something big. I don't know if it's gonna be an artistic renaissance, armageddon maybe. Yeah...I like the internet you know, when it's used for good instead of evil. Just things you know, the way you can be in touch with people, and it's not about...money. And yeah, like you say, if this thing's coming, it's gonna be because there's no money involved anymore. I'd love the day that record companies fold up under their own wasteful spending, it's ridiculous.

I really look forward to when that's over and people seek out the music that wasn't played to them on the radio. Like that Last.fm thing, it's awesome, such a great service, I've found so many great artists, that I would have never heard before, just because someone recommended it, or just because they pop up in a playlist, you like this guy- well you might like this guy. It's not always right, but.. And there's no money involved in that, these people are just doing it, but it's obviously a career for them as well.

I definitely feel that your music is part of that direction, and for as much as I listen to it, I can sincerely say that without reservation.

I think when you are heavy into appreciating music, you find out that there are certain songs, albums and musicians that are meant just for you as a listener and their work becomes gifts to you that touch your life in very specific tangible ways, and I want to thank you for giving me Jesse Stephens gifts.

[laughs] No problem. Well, I'm glad that you like it, because, well, that's what it's for really. I wouldn't give it out, if I didn't hope that someone might like it. Even, more than like, it means something. It means something to me, obviously that's why I do it, but for it to mean something for someone else is, awesome, it's what it's all about.

It comes across as authentic, and honest and transparent, and I think that's part of what makes real art, so that's why it inspires me.

I believe in honesty, above everything else really.

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Photo: withreservation

Reverend Vince Anderson & His Love Choir. This is not your typical reverend or your typical choir. We had the pleasure of sitting down with Vince over tea at the Blackbird Parlour in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

Why Music?

Good question, I started playing piano when I was 3 so it's always been part of my expression. It's also something that I actually returned to because I left it for a while, then went to the conservatory and then felt called to the ministry. So I kind of left music behind for a little bit.

Then when I went to seminary, the music called me again. I tried to say no, and it kept calling me back. When I got to seminary, I went to Union Theological here in New York, I found myself kind of done with music at that point. But I felt everyone calling at me, and they had a daily chapel service, so I felt like God was telling me that "this was the voice I've given you", there's more, but this is one language I've given you, don't not use it.

If I have any semblance of a music career, I took my first job as a music director when I was 12, at a start up church that met in a school, and they needed a piano player so they got me. It's always been a part of my sacred and secular expression. Music has always been a big part of my language.

Who were and are your biggest influences?

Johnny Cash. As far as what I do- playing music in bars and the combination of secular and sacred that I do. The kind of music I play, I call it "Dirty Gospel". Even though I identify myself as a gospel artist,

He gave me a certain kind of freedom, I don't have to be in that box, I always thought of Johnny Cash as a gospel artist, always, first and foremost. The more human he got, the stronger his gospel message got- to me. It just added more weight and more depth and breadth to it, like the deeper he got into writing about murder, drugs and bad times, the more powerful "How Great Thou Art" sounded to me, when he would go into a gospel song. He's one of my biggest influences.

Photo: withreservation

There's a whole mess of traditional gospel artists- Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Sister Clara Ward, Professor Alex Bradford, Blind Willie Johnson, I tend to like gospel artists that veer on the blues side of things. Dorothy Norwood I like alot too, Shirley Ceasar. I also veer towards their 70's records. The Blind Boys of Alabama, The Harmonizing Four, there's countless, countless.

U2, which is an odd one, listing all the other references. But they too, I think are from the school of Johnny Cash in that they are not afraid to sing songs from a Christian perspective that recognizes that we're human first and Christian second. To me, that's the most important thing. It is deeper, we all come from a womb and we reflect that experience, and that makes the experience with God that much more meaningful.

What kind of music do you make and why?

Well, I talked a little bit about it earlier, it's called "Dirty Gospel" and it grows out of a gospel tradition, gospel and blues. It's very simple chord progressions, maybe a little r&b thrown in as well. I try to take the roots of gospel music and get to the human elements again. Strip away the piety of gospel songs to a degree, get em' back to the root, what is it about this song that really connects with people, and why does this song do it and this song doesn't. Or,

So, I'm interested in that. My music's got plenty of a rock and roll attitude thrown in there as well. It's definitely informed by a punk sentiment in a way, I just kind of go for it, I'm not the best singer in the world, but I got what I got.

Also, at our root we're a bar band, but a gospel bar band. We rarely play churches. That's where we practice, we don't rehearse so much, it's like that bar band work ethic, goin' out there and doing three sets a night, that informs the music alot.

What's your instrument of choice when you make music?

Piano, and keyboard, I've introduced organ a little bit. But I still love the percussive element of the keyboard, and the piano, I really play it like a rhythm instrument- pound it as hard as I can. I'm a stomper too, so I guess my feet are an instrument of choice too, I'm happy when I get a stage that really sounds good, and I'm happy when I'm wearing the right shoes. Recently, I've thought of my feet as an instrument more and more- what stage, and what shoes go well with that stage.

How many instruments do you play?

Let's see, I play accordian, bass, bible school guitar- like summer camp guitar. I also play clarinet, that was my band instrument, and saxophone, but I haven't picked up any of those in years so...

Did you study under anyone?

Well, I was trained classically, at the Conservatory of the Pacific. I had this german professor named Wolfgang, his tie went way down too long and he was like "Wince, Wince.." and we would play in this studio that was two grand pianos, and I don't know how on earth he got those pianos in there because that's all that fit in there. I still think to this day that they built the building around it. So, that's been my only formal training, and years of study before that with different teachers. I'm starting to think I want to take piano again and some organ, but I haven't found the right teacher yet.

How many years have you dedicated to your craft?

Well, I started at 3 and I'm 37 now so...so I've been playing piano for 34 years. Professionally, I've been doing this for almost 13 years.

Are you planning on doing this forever?

Well, you know, until God tells me not too. I've had a hard couple of years so creatively, I've reached kind of a dried up point a bit. I wrote my first song in a year, about a month ago. But I feel the inspiration welling up again. And having the opportunity to preach again in a formal setting with Jay has really kind of stirred the pot a bit. It's an interesting time right now, because on stage the creativity really lives, but in the studio I'm having a challenge. The band is very improvisational- songs can develop and things can move. Songs can be written on-stage. As long as it feeds me and as long as I feel like God is leading me in that direction, I'll keep doin' it.

What keeps you excited about making music?

Playing with other people, and that moment that I feel the Holy Spirit has really visited, it's great when that happens in a bar in front of a bunch of people who may or may not be church. There's other times where it's just a good time. And there's that conversation where God has spoken to us, through us, and that we've spoken back to God. And when that happens, that sort of circular conversation happens in front of an audience, it's great. It can turn a very profane space into a sacred space and feel amazing. So, if that keeps happenin'...

Photo: withreservation

Apart from making music, what keeps your interest?

Baseball. I'm a New York Mets fan, the season starts Monday. So that's my other cathedral, my temple [laughs]. Running, I like to run. Preaching and doing pastor work too. Meeting Jay in the last year has filled out a certain part of what I feel I've been called to do and gave it a spot in which it felt full and real. I feel that God has given that to me and completed a picture that I've kinda waited for, for years. Preaching at Pete's I don't have to hide my bar work, that can be right there out in front, and it feels very real and organic, like I got God's promise.

What's your best advice for up and coming artists and musicians?

I was just talking to Jay about this yesterday. For all of my success locally- I've really had alot of success, in Brooklyn, I'm an established artist, so people just feel like I'm successful, but I don't sell any records, I don't have any distribution, so I don't know, I think right now, as far as advice on that end, for people who are tryin' to break in and establish themselves- I haven't done the best job of maintaining a career. But, I have stayed true to what moves me and I've followed that bliss. That's kept me performing for this long, and enough that clubs want us so that means somethin'.

I'm happy performing. As I get a little older, I wish there was a level that we're at that would sustain it financially for a little longer. But I don't think of that so often, maybe I should think about it more, my advice would be for artists to think about it. But more importantly though, that can't be what you're after. I still believe that I'm gonna be taken care of somehow. If this is what I'm supposed to be doing and God wants me to continue, God will take care of it so that we can do it. It's more important for me really, to follow that bliss and to make sure that makes me happy. Performing makes me happy and bringing that Holy Spirit in the room makes me happy. So my advice would be to just follow that.

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We had the privilege of spending some time with Kirk Cameron on one of his trips to New York City, the interview however, was conducted over the phone with Kirk in Southern California, as we didn't have the proper time to do the sit down during his short stay in NYC. Kirk is very straight-forward and transparent, and speaks the truth in love.

What would you tell a young person who feels they have a gift of acting, but is maybe getting a lack of support from their family or friends?

God called alot of people to do seemingly crazy things, in their day, I was just reading this morning God calling Noah to build this giant boat in a place where it looked like it wouldn't need to be used.

yeah and it never had rained before...

yeah, exactly, and you know he was a laughing stock of everyone around him. He had to have tremendous amounts of faith for years and years to be able to follow through on what God had told him to do. And if God is leading someone into the entertainment industry, to shine his light there for Him, then sometimes that's gonna be in the face of people mocking and laughing.

But I wouldn't suggest that any child ignore the warnings of their parents, because, hopefully, no one has your best interests in mind more than your parents do, listen to that. My suggestion would be: just take it to the Lord in prayer and submit yourself to the Lord and ask Him to be your guide and let Gods word guide your path, and follow where the Lord is leading you to go.

Would you really say that strictly speaking, acting can be a considered gift from the Lord?

I don't know that I'd use those terms, I don't know if that's not true, but when I think of gifts I try to stick with the biblical gifts that are in the word of God, But certainly, everything that we have, every good and perfect gift comes down from our Father from heaven, in the gifts and natural talents that we have, and they should be used for God's glory not ours.

In your article "Survival requirements for a Christian in Hollywood", you mention how many celebrities name the name of Christ and yet are walking billboards for sin. Does this tie in with people who speak about Jesus but have not really put Him on? And how does this deception take place in hollywood?

I think so, absolutely, I think a genuine believer in Christ is someone who has crucified himself with Christ. He no longer lives but Christ lives within him. That's not to say that a genuine Christian will not stumble into sin. But a walking billboard for sin, you're talking about people who are living in the world and serving the world, and the desires of the flesh, not people who are denying themselves and submitting to Christ.

Jesus said "let him who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity" And rather we see celebrities saying they believe in God, or wear a cross around their neck, naming the name of Christ and they indulge iniquity, they drink it up like water, flaunt it around and say "that's just who I am" and indeed it is.

How do you think this deception takes place in hollywood, is it just because the nearness of the riches and the things of the world are closer than they might be in any other industry?

No, I don't think it's unique to hollywood, you're just talking about false converts. You're talking about people who call themselves Christians, but reveal who they really are by the fruit of their life, "You shall know a tree by its fruit".

I don't think that these are Christians who have slipped away, and are just having a rough time. While there certainly are those kind of Christians like myself- a Christian who struggles with sin on a daily basis, but there are many people that you see who are clearly living with sin as their master and Lord, not Christ.

It makes me think of when Jesus spoke of the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches that choke the word and sometimes I wonder if people did start out on the right track like you said, and they just got lost, or if it's just another name, another tag, another brand. You mentioned the crosses and thats a big thing.

Yeah, I think its the second more than the first.

It seems that to be a Christian in hollywood is a great challenge, from your experience, is it almost like you have to create a space there of your own that has Christian values, or is it that you try as much as possible to bring that as a Christian actor to secular sets?

I think both, I realize that Christ has sent us out as sheep among wolves, and we need to create an environment where we can grow spiritually, and I do that by obeying the scriptures to meditate on the word of God day and nite. I read the Bible everyday, not as some sort of a boasting thing, but just as a survival requirement.

Praying continually, and fellowshipping with other Christians, and getting out there to share the gospel with the lost, all those kinds of things create an environment in my heart and in my mind where I can survive spiritually. Then I try to be salt and light in the world and affect the people around me with my Godly life.

Does that happen alot on secular sets?

Yeah there's always opportunities and you can create the opportunities just by walking up to somebody and talking to them "Hey hows it goin, you like your job, have you seen the passion of the Christ, oh yeah great movie, do you have a Christian background, Oh why not? Do you believe in the Lord, where are you at spiritually? Do you believe in anything?" Just create the opportunity, and let somebody know that you care about them and that you want to talk about important stuff.

In the movies you've been in and things that you have done, do you think that the Lord will make a way that there can be a considerable share of a Christian place in hollywood, or do you think it's just going to be a constant struggle in the sense of the war against the big machine?

I really don't know, I think the Lord honors those who are faithful to Him and if He's called Christians into the industry or converts someone within the industry, I think clearly, God can create a place for Christian values to be championed through movies and television programs, but I wouldn't ever suggest that the Christian community sort of waits for Steven Spielberg to become Christian and create this giant Christian movie production company, or for Mel Gibson to turn the culture around.

I don't think that's going to happen, my hunch is that the Lord tends to use lowly, He chooses to speak though donkeys and peasants and people who are not necessarily noble or rich or wise. I have a feeling revival is going to come when everyday Christians get back to the basic issues and realize that they've been entrusted with the message of eternal life and they need to stop focusing on themselves, and get out there into the world and do what Christ told them to do.

Brandon Rike...what can you say? Well we can start by saying that he is the lead singer of a great band—Dead Poetic. He is also a very sincere, straight-forward, and talented individual. We had the opportunity to get some face-time after the Dead Poetic show here in NYC. After slipping behind a curtain fronted booth, taking a seat...

New York City / Bowery Ballroom / 07.12.04

The first thing I'd like to mention is that I think you have some serious talent between your voice and your lyrics.

Thank you man.

Do you feel that your talent is a gift from the Lord?

Well of course yeah, I mean definitely. I think more importantly, I feel glad that I've been gifted with the potential to be able to sing this way but, I feel glad that the Lord has instilled in me a determination to improve. Because when we did the first record I had never sang before really, I really wasn't much of a singer. We did the record and the vocals came out ok but I wasn't really that happy with them. I really worked my butt off between the two records to perfect my voice and to find my voice, and once I find where its at, to try to do everything I can with it you know...So I'm still working on it, but I'm very glad that I've been able to be determined to improve it.

Do you feel within the gift that the Lord has given you some sort of responsibility or a burden in order to use it to bring people to Him?

Well I think what I feel is that with the fact that we can play music, and just the fact that I can write lyrics that are gonna be read by thousands of people — that's definetely a responsibility you can't take lightly. As far as directly, or it's not like I have an agenda behind my lyrics necessarily, I just know that I don't want to write crap, you know what I'm sayin? I want to make sure that everything that I write is straight up from the heart and very important, not just something I threw together to get the song done or anything like that.

I definitely feel a responsibility since we have so many people reading our lyrics and buying our records. I feel a responsibility to write something meaningful and write something from my heart. So in turn, when something comes from my heart as a Christian, hopefully they'll see some type of positivity in it. Well, more importantly, hopefully they will see some spirituality in it, because I can't promise positivity in all my lyrics because that's not real everyday life for me you know what I mean?

Real everyday life for a Christian isn't constantly positive, real everyday life for a Christian isn't constantly joyous, being a Christian is a hard thing and there's alot of trials and tribulations involved on a daily basis, there's alot of ups and downs — and ups and downs on every stop. So I think I'm more into being honest than necessarily positive.

You brought it up tonite during the show, out of all the songs that stick to me the strongest has been "Glass in the Trees". You said it was one of the most important songs, could you elaborate a little bit on it because it seems to have some really nice transitions in the writing, it goes from different themes and really takes you visually to different places...

It's about a friend of mine who passed away, he was drunk and he was driving extremely fast and flew off the side of the road into a couple of trees. I went to the crash site and the entire two trees that he crashed into were covered in glass, covered in windshield, so much that they actually sparkled when you saw them.

It was a really horrible car accident, but what the song goes back and forth to is me standing at the crash site about 24 hrs after it happened which sets me about 3 o'clock in the morning the day after, and I'm sitting there at the crash site and just going through everything I felt when I was standing there. I'm seeing trees, I'm seeing how it all happened, but I'm flashing back to our relationship, —me and my friend. The thing about our friendship was that we were great friends for a long time and around the time I accepted Christ I had alot of people telling me to separate from all my non-Christian friends.

Thats a real popular thing for youth pastors to tell kids. Because it's a real easy thing to say because it's like "well you know what, if a guy's not Christian, (you're telling a 13yr old) — you know what? If they're not a Christian and they're cussing, smoking and drinking, just don't hang out with them." But that's a real easy thing to say to a kid like that but I really don't think the real reality is set in to that. Because the real reality means even if they're some of the most important people that you've met in your life, even if they're some of the most loving people you've met in your life, even though they're not Christian you've gotta treat them the way Jesus would treat somebody.

Unfortunately, when I was 13 I was a little bit more naive and I listened to what alot of people had to say, and I took it to heart and therefore that lead me to separate from him even more and more. So when the time came that he passed away I realized that every opportunity I could have had to be a positive role model in his life, or to be just some type of positive influence in his life was totally gone now and I lost my chance, and you know maybe that's what it took for me to realize that's not what it's about.

So I've got alot of friends now, alot of my non-Christian friends that I treat like Jesus would treat them. I try to be a great friend to them, and you know there's people out there who are awesome people and I think alot of Christians won't even give them the time of day because they don't believe what they believe. You've got to be ready to go out and find out that most of the world doesn't agree with what you believe, but all you can do is be that positive influence, and show people the God that you know, show people a loving God.

I think if we represent God correctly, if we show the God we really know then it's going to start appealing to people alot more because they're gonna realize how much God loves them. If this is the change that God has made in this persons life, then I want something to do with whatever that is, you know what I mean? So I think more emphasis needs to be put on loving people than separating from people.

This is totally non-relevant tonite, but in response to the Knitting Factory show, I come from the Bad Brains and Fishbone days back in California— those were my bands, and the pits I notice now, the hard ones, seem to be changing, bringing in like Capoiera and round house kicking and all that stuff, when we used to just mosh. I do see some comradery though within it, like if someone falls down somebody still picks them up. But how do you feel about that at your shows, not as a musician, but as a Christian, when you see people like that? Does it cause you to do anything?

Well that's alot of hardcore stuff and we're not really much of a hardcore band, but we see that alot, and I just think that's kids ways of having a good time, alot of them are very angry and alot of them are very violent, but I don't know man, it's always been a weird thing to me to be honest, those guys practice their moves in front of a mirror.

Yeah well, when HR the lead singer from Bad Brains split off and did his reggae shows- I was at one in Tijuana and he stopped the show a few times because people thought they were at a Bad Brains show, and he was playing reggae. So he was like look- you all are gonna have to stop or I'm gonna go off the stage, because he said you need to love each other and he was trying to get that love vibe back again with the angry crowd he had drawn for years, so it was kind of like a juxtapose thing...

Yeah man, we've stopped shows man, we've stopped in the middle of a song- there's been like fights goin on and we're like get out..because alot of people just come to be angry and I don't know man, hardcore dancing has always been one of those crazy things that I've never understood. But man if that's what kids do to get goin man then...whatever..

Hellfest: what are your thoughts on Hellfest, in the sense of what kind of decisions, what went through your head before you decided to play at Hellfest.

I think the thing about Hellfest, that makes such a question about it is just the name. But Hellfest is basically the same festival as Furnacefest, same type of festival as any hardcore festival, it so happened that they just decided to call it Hellfest. But it's just alot of good bands man, it's alot of bands that are our piers and alot of bands that we really like so that's why we've chosen to do it. Actually this year, there's a thing that says we're playing it, but we're not playing it this year, we're still gonna be on this Papa Roach tour. I think there was some miscommunication somewhere but yeah we won't be there.

You say that you like design, what areas of design? Do you design yourself?

Yeah I design all of our T-Shirts, I design T-Shirts for Under Oath, Beloved, As I Lay Dying, Project86, I'll be doing Papa Roach shirts, Instruction shirts... You know I have a big clientele of bands. I do some websites, but more importantly I concentrate on T-Shirt designs, trying to make good, classic T-Shirt designs that people buy. You know just basically that type of stuff, band artwork, so it's really my passion and it's even my passion before music, it's the thing that I just love and am passionate about. I have a design company called "Dark Collar Design" and I've been doing it for about 2 or 3 years, and I try to balance the band and that, I try to do some work on tour, but most of the time I do all of my work when I'm home.

Are you a mac man or a pc man?

A mac man of course! Of course.

[insert hi-five]

Well maybe we'll feature you on the site, and some of your work.

Sure, sure.

Do you have any advice for a young Christian artist who is trying to work with their gift?

Yeah, for a young Christian artist, that's a tough one. I would say to be ridiculously honest all the time. And to be ready for the fact that your honesty is going to be ridiculed, to be ready for the fact that your honesty is going to be very uncomfortable for people maybe, Christian and non. You're gonna have the honesty from non-Christians when you are honest about your Faith that may make them uncomfortable but you've got to be honest enough to show them that you love them, you know what I mean?

You've got to live a life the way that Jesus lived his life, you've gotta put love in front of everything, but to Christians, you're going to disappoint alot of Christians, and thats inevitable. And I wish it wasn't true, I wish I would know that every Christian was happy with what I was doing, but there's alot of people who are going to push their opinions on you and tell you this, this and this, but you've got to stay strong and live according to God's will for your life. And Gods will for your band, and just to love people, everybody you meet.

Get on the best stores you can get on, Christian or non, do whatever shows you can get because the purpose of the band is to be able to appeal to as much people as you can. Don't limit yourself to the Christian market because there's so many people who need help outside of the Christian market. So just be a positive influence to everybody and realize you're not gonna save the world but you can show them you know who God is and you can show them you know who Jesus is, you know what I'm sayin?

Yeah Brandon, we know exactly what you're saying bro...

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Jesse Wright, a soft-spoken, sincere type, sat down with us to discuss issues ranging from God to afros...Jesse has a wealth of talents- painting, design, playing guitar, writing and programming to name just a few. He's a Connoisseur of ice cream and a big movie buff.

Knowing you now for 10 years puts a different spin on this interview for me, but having said that, I'll give it my best attempt to minimize my partiality to you and your work, since I'm one of your biggest fans.

Ten adult years of memory is a little...[laughs]

Yeah, ten years after anything is a little....

When did you first know or recognize that you were an artist?

I'm sure it's stealing quotes from several people but I think that in terms of recognizing if I'm an artist- I think that's something I'm building towards, but in terms of enjoying it, or feeling it's a vocabulary that I recognize things through, I think that's one of those "ever since" answers.

If it's particular instincts, I definitely remember being with my father and him drawing- "how do you draw that", "how do you do this" I'd ask. My great-grandfather used to paint as well, so I used to kind of go under his table where he painted. He would use these model paints.

Oh nice!

[laughs] Yeah, I just remember loving that smell and watching how those different things could make that form and just wondering where he went to, you know.

What did he paint?

He would do these painting by numbers, and the thing about that is, it was a religious family, so he would do like the "last supper" or Christ with sheep.

Paint by number, thats hot! [laughs]

[laughs] Yeah, and I think the interesting thing about that which, you know kind of comes up contemporary for me, is that there was this pattern- and before he put the colors there, there was this underlying thing, and he would apply these colors to fit these patterns and at the end he would have this picture or this story, but there was always some underlying pattern there so it's interesting how that's developed.

Thats a good way of looking at it as opposed to something that's more constrained- in that you have to follow a set of rules, seeing it has a structure you can kind of use or not use, kind of like how your work is now.

Yeah, yeah absolutely.

Describe what the young Jesse Wright was like.

Afro, corduroy [laughs]

Um, I don't really know...[hesitates]..."watching" you know I just remember watching a lot, it seemed like things happened and I was watching them, as opposed to being there at that moment.

I kind of remember in that way, I don't know if part of that also happens to deal with (not that it was an issue with me) but I recognize as you get older, sometimes "mixed heritage" if you want to call it, is different practices, from different cultures.

Certain things that people say "it's a given, this is the way it is", and then you go to a different household with a different background or heritage, you see their practices and they say "this is a given and this is how it is" I think once that starts happening you kind of begin to look at it as though, well maybe this isn't a given, what really is it about? And so you start watching to see what's going on.

The 12 Apostles

What role did art play in your formative years- when you were young? Did you do any art, were you into artistic things?

I was always drawing or cutting things out, making little sets. As far as seeing artwork- growing up in high school and elementary school, I always had great teachers and people who would give me supplies for free.

Cool, did you do well in art class?

I'll say YES [laughs]. I enjoyed it.

You and I both, speaking of school, graduated from the School of Visual Arts, here in New York City. Now that it's been a while since we've graduated, what is your perspective at your time at SVA? Was it worthwhile? Knowing what you know now would you have done it over, and would you have done anything differently?

The thing about school, and I don't know if this is a plus 30 realization, you can look back and see that experience is always giving you what you need. It might be a while before you recognize it, and there were alot of things I was looking for when I was there, that I couldn't understand why it was that I didn't get it.

On the flip side, I did an exchange program in England for about a year, and this teacher came in and I was ready to show him my work and he said "hmm, you do all of these things very well, but I have no idea why you are doing them, and I'm going to come back in a couple weeks and you show me why you are doing them."

[laughs all around]

Yeah that came as a body blow so to speak, but the thing about that is, I realized the difference from that education to here [usa]. Here, I think you are geared towards- "what's the assignment, what do you want me to do, how do you want me to do it, and I'm gonna deliver it, and I'm gonna get that A." Whereas when I went there, it kind of gave me the other side to find out- "how do I give myself the A, what am I about, why am I doing it?". So, although it's stifling for a bit, it set me on that path.

At what point in your life did you become specifically aware that you needed Jesus Christ in your life? Was there a defining moment?

Not in the same way that we spoke about art, but what I would say is that same answer of "ever since" in terms of something holding a presence- because it's in my family on both sides- and my grandfather was the head of his church.

In Jamaica...

Yeah right across the street, and the same thing with my dad, his father, he wasn't the head but he was up there.

So both sides of your family were active.

Right, so in terms of the presence being there, and actually the first time I remember doing something with art, it was a competition at the church.

[laughs all around]

I drew this whale consuming the earth [laughs] I got second place.

Blank Pages

Was Jonah in it?

Humility, yeah well that was what it kind of was with the Earth.

How old were you?

Maybe 8 somewhere around there? But you know some questions come in and I do remember asking my Grandfather questions, and I remember him saying "you never question the Lord" and I think some of that wasn't a good enough answer for me so to speak.

You know kind of like the painting by numbers with the pattern underneath, you might not see what the picture is yet, but as you get older, you're like "oohh k", once the colors start filling in and through experience you start seeing that picture and that face there so to speak. When I stopped blocking it back? I would say around college time.

During school or after?

Well it was prior to that, in that it definitely had a presence well through high school, and even before that, but when you say "this is it, I'm not going back and forth on it" it was probably around then.

Well it's cool how it kind of linked up with the art, and the experience was together, because thats one of the themes of this magazine- to encourage the people in the Gifts that they have been given, so it's interesting with you, you found God in your gift.

Knowing you as I do, I've seen a very specific shift towards Biblical themes in your work over the last ten years, what role does Gods Word play in your work?

I would say, there was a while where I didn't do art after school, and you know part of that is monetarily, it builds, and when you are in art school you can just be doing your artwork and think- that's how it will go when you get out. What I would say to that is, you go through this stage that you say "what does it provide"? If somebody is sick, can you rub a painting on it? is it gonna get better? What can you give somebody, how can you strengthen the afflicted arm?

As well, theres the argument that all things have been done, so how do you make something new? I think you make it new if that's the right word—I'd say distinct— is to make it about your story, the things that interest you, and those are things I felt I had to share, and taking time and looking back, again it's that underlying pattern- you can paint alot of things, but what is really the allegory going on underneath?

I think bringing the words was just to not necessarily be ambiguous in what I was trying to deal with, and in using that as a source I began working large scale to deal with large themes. I thought maybe this is what I could feed or offer, maybe not so much to the physical wound but, the spiritual food, to pass it on.

So basically your work is a form of testimony, it's a testimonial from your experience of things.

It definitely reflects my experience, these recent pieces can function as a witnessing, absolutely.

Have you had any of that at your shows? have people come up and ask you things, giving you a chance to share with them?

Well I think the biggest thing about it is, going back to what the teacher said about "doing things well but why are you doing it", these recent paintings are dealing with mixed media. I pick up things that I find and might not necessarily know what it is at first, and this brings me in to also be a viewer, and it's my trying to understand situations.

I think when you're going on that journey, people start to come in and they see the symbols and it goes both ways- people are embracing, people are questioning- sometimes the harsh- "are you doing this because you feel its constraining".

The work, because it has an abstract element leaves room for dialogue, and given the subject matter, people are receptive about the opportunity to talk about how they feel.

Do you believe that your art and talents are a Gift from the Lord, and if so what do you think He wants to do through Jesse Wright?

I definitely have to say that it's a blessing to do it, and I think recognizing that you are able to do it, you must do it.

As far as what God might have to say through me, hopefully part of why I've taken the approach I have, involving collage, or mixed media is to open myself up to beyond what I may necessarily have to say, to sometimes step back and look at what's being said here- what message is maybe passing through me, it could be I'm constraining, it may need to open a bit, some things are pinpointed, while others are abstract, sometimes it's completed once someone comes to me with their question or testifies.

So do you think it goes both directions, in the sense that it opens up a dialogue?

Absolutely, both between me and the source, and then later the viewer has something to say and their experience. I try to keep an ear to that to see what message might be coming through them back to me.

Has there been in the recent pieces you have been working on, something that the Lord is repeatedly bring up, that seems to come through your work, themes that are continuous, things you always find yourself dealing with?

Well these, recent pieces I've been addressing mainly Genesis or Revelation, and Transfiguration. In terms of technique, I'm definitely interested in balance. And with the particular things going on in the world right now, things extreme, I feel like things weren't being ironic or ambiguous, and they were extreme situations and I guess Revelation can be an extreme book, so I've been exploring those themes.

Yeah because I remember a few years ago that peace march against the Iraq war here in NYC had a real big impact on you, the horses riding over the crowd, and I know politics has always played somewhat of a role in your work.

Sure, well I think where that also comes in is in "setup, conflict and resolution" and that plays in with so much work output across mediums. Music and Art has to deal with reaction and reacting and putting it out. I think with setup, conflict and resolution- look at the setup, and then you go through the conflict and maybe rather than just react and spew venom and get the poison out - step back: "what do I think about this, how do I feel about this, and what clarity if any can be put forward after that instead of just putting out my confusion."

I might look back later and go "wow I was confused" but at least at the time, it's looking at the situation. For example, you mentioned the horses- when the horses came through I just had the image of how this horse has been used throughout history or might be in the future, the four horses of the apocalypse, horses on plantations, just making these connections, to go back I realize I didn't answer your question before, it's making those connections to things on the surface and linking them up to things I've found in scripture, and the horse is a good example of that, whats the underlying thing?...

What sort of accountability do you think an artist who is a Christian has, what are their standards? What makes a Christian artist different from any other artist?

Technique wise, ok I did a painting called "Isaiah" and in Isaiah 5 there's "woe unto those that call evil good, good for evil, darkness for light, light for darkness, bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" So I think that goes back to actually answer your last question which is to think about it, and link it up in some way, I don't know of other peoples responsibilities, but I know that's something I try to do, and try to be mindful of what you are doing and offer something back, something positive or to link it up in some way rather than spread out confusion, trying to hopefully bring some positivity there.

Ok so positivity would be a form of accountability, in the sense of going beyond as you said before- beyond "the reaction".

Yeah beyond the initial reaction and check it. I've done it checking it against scripture, and praying about these pieces. The piece "Love is on the way to War" was done during the build up of the war in Afghanistan, and now with Iraq, I was praying, praying, praying, "God, we shouldn't have this war, don't let this happen" and looking back- I don't know why this is supposed to happen but I can pray about it and that's "Love is on its way to War" "Love" going to war on the behalf....on behalf of the situation...

I think that also references something that I was reading at the time, Genesis 3:23 when Adam and Eve were expelled and had to leave, to go till the land and face life and death, this Love interceding on their behalf. Regarding the war, initially I could have just spewed bile, and the things I don't like about it but I tried to see what I could find positive in it and then work from there.

You're one of the few people I know who has been blessed with a tremendous amount of talents, from painting to drawing, to web developer to writing and playing guitar, as well as art direction for huge bands like Live, how do you manage all of it, it seems like a pretty full plate.

[laughs] I don't know if I do, but if I connect it to the art, there's so many times I don't know how to get to the art, so when I get there and hit the art, I think that's when people respond positively to it.

I think they are picking up on my desire, and my appreciation to be able to do it when I do it. I think that appreciation is what they are responding to, if not necessarily from the imagery, that energy comes across.

There is a juggle, but I found that dealing in those different disciplines lends itself to the style, or maybe my style began to grow out of that, from using the computer, from programming, just the balance doing that I think lends itself towards collage, because I actually started doing the collage books because I didn't think I was actually going to get to do the artwork from doing some of those other things. And then the energy just couldn't fit into a little book so I went 4 foot by 4 foot.

So that being said- people all over the world are going to see your work on the site, what advice would you give to any young person who is just discovering their talents and their gifts?

To be honest, I'm sure their are other people on this site with far more prestige than I have to offer at this point, the part of why I enjoyed this opportunity, is because I am that person, because it's now that I'm really beginning to push it. Just be open and leave room, just leave room. If you want say spiritually speaking- leave room for God to do some work, don't limit it by trying to figure it all out yourself, be open to what's coming and let it pour through.

Thanks Jesse, God Bless you and your work.

Related

• The Paintings of Jesse Wright [proper]